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Brandon Christensen

Dive into horror with Director, Brandon Christensen with 5 feature film director credits in horror to-date. Brandon takes you behind the scenes exploring the nuances of writing and directing successful horror films. Check out his most recent movie, ‘The Puppetman’ on AMC’s Shudder.

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Dive into horror with Director, Brandon Christensen with 5 feature film director credits in horror to-date.

Brandon takes you behind the scenes exploring the nuances of writing and directing successful horror films. Check out his most recent movie, ‘The Puppetman’ on AMC’s Shudder.

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Transcript below.

Host: Kyle McCachen (“KM”)

Today on the behind the scenes interview series, we have writer director producer Brandon Christensen (“BC”). He's completed five feature films and sold them internationally and has another film coming out this year. For one week, his film Z, was ahead of Marvel's Avengers in the box office in Mexico. Brandon is a specialist in horror films and the majority of his films can be seen on AMC's streaming service Shudder.

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So thanks for being here today.

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Guest: Brandon Christensen (“BC”)

No problem.

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So if you were going to reflect on your journey in the film industry, having made five four feature films, do you consider yourself lucky?

00;00;37;05 - 00;00;59;15

Oh, definitely. I mean, I think a part of it is not just luck, but it's also just the willingness to take risks, you know, and just the situation with making films and stuff like that. Everything is always about risk taking, you know? Like, I think that now that we live in a time where everybody has the technology and things like that, there is not as many hurdles as there was, you know, 20, 30 years ago.

00;00;59;18 - 00;01;19;22

So it really just becomes like an inner battle that you have to like. Can you overcome the fear of failure, all of these things, and just get something out there. I mean, any anytime you're doing any sort of artistic thing, painting, music, drawing, anything like that, you're putting yourself out there. And so there's that fear of failure, fear of like looking dumb, whatever it is. So I do think that a lot of it is just having the willingness to put yourself out there, which is a huge part of it. So, yeah, I mean, it's totally lucky if you can if you can do it and create a career out of it and sort of sustain yourself, I think that's where the luck is. Because I know a lot of talented people that have made stuff and they've kind of gotten stuck on that first film or stuck in post-production on the first movie and it's never really gone to the next level. And while I'm still, you know, very much an independent filmmaker, I've sort of created a sustainable business model that allows me to have some flexibility and not be constantly waiting for money and things like that. Like I've got sort of a good pool of resources that I can go to, and it's been nice to just sort of keep the momentum rolling because if you can get into a position where you're constantly waiting for money coming. But it's tough. So, I mean, if you're trying to make expensive features like $1,000,000, $2 million, that money, that's a lot of money. You know, it's hard to get someone to sacrifice that because, you know, the reality is most movies don't make money, right? So if you're.

00;02;31;02 - 00;02;32;29

Well, break even or lose.

00;02;32;29 - 00;02;44;23

Totally. So it's it's you know, it's a tough business model to present to someone that's you're like asking for money short of having just like a billionaire whale that you can, go to.

00;02;44;25 - 00;03;01;28

And how many of us I feel like a lot of us filmmakers do know, like these whales and stuff. But you're never moving forward, I'm not sure if you've had success with them. I have a couple of guys who I know who are high net worth. They're interested in my films and you chat about it, but that also if they're not in the industry, it also seems to be maybe like a fool's errand. Do you think that's true?

00;03;03;05 - 00;03;22;23

Yeah, I think it is a fool's errand. The entire industry is insane. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, you know, if most of these projects lose money or barely recoup, it's it's not really a great investment vehicle. You have to find someone that doesn't care about the business side. You know, if they are that kind of rich, high net worth person. But they also just care about supporting people that are starting out or something like that, you know? And I think that I think I wish that the industry had more of that in it. And like the actors and things like that, like there's there is this gatekeeping with these, you know, you have you'll have actors that are talking about, oh, the indie scene is dying, but it's like we'll go be in an indie, You know, you could launch someone's career tomorrow if you just signed on for some cheap 20 day shoot or 15 day shoot and just sort of helped, you know, helped grow these filmmakers. But they don't do that. I think if you're an actor who wants to act, I think indies are a great place to do it because, you know, they're not all great, but it allows you to be on camera and try things a lot, you know?

00;04;03;28 - 00;04;09;17

What do you think is so special about horror and Thriller in the indie space? Because that's where you focus.

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I think it's just a great medium for directors to just sort of try things because there's no there's a market appeal for horror that most genres don't have because comedy is very tough because humor doesn't translate across, you know, boundaries. So like you go to Japan, you go to you go to Germany. An American joke doesn't land the way it does there.

00;04;32;09 - 00;04;52;28

So there's kind of this there's this there's just sort of a disconnect there. So the market, unless you've got like a Seth Rogen or something like that, leading your film that has that international appeal, it's very kind of focused on North America. So with horror, the idea is. King So it's like if you've got a cool jump scare or something like that, like that's going to translate everywhere.

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You know, it's just people in Latin America are scared of the same thing as people in China, you know? So it's like it's it's more sustainable because you open up the market to the film more than you would with the comedy or a drama. I think action films, they do the same thing, but you need more money to shoot action.

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So it's a little bit tougher to get into.

00;05;11;24 - 00;05;24;14

Yeah, I want to get back to that about like marketing and why you just decided from a business point of view and also your career in your business. But you mentioned jump scares. How do you give me three tips on how to make a jump scare work?

00;05;24;17 - 00;05;50;04

Three tips? I think it's all it's kind of like a joke. Jump scares are basically jokes. They're the same thing. You have a setup and you have a punch line. And so it's just all about how you do that. I mean, like even though Quentin Tarantino doesn't do jump scares or horror or anything like that, you'll watch something like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where Brad Pitt goes to the ranch and he's just pulling the strings of tension so long that you're just so uncomfortable watching it.

00;05;50;07 - 00;06;09;17

There isn't a jump scare payoff, but it has that same sort of anxiety building feeling when he's just slowly going through this ranch and you have the sound design and every creak and you just like dreading what's going to happen because, you know, you're bringing like the history of this ranch and these people. And who are these, you know, these cultists are that, you know, that something can go wrong because he's not a real character.

00;06;09;17 - 00;06;27;22

So, you know, is he in danger? I don't know. But there's that unknown that you kind of tap into, but you just sort of pull that string as long as you can before it snaps. And then if you, you know, and then the other side of that is you can pull it as long as you want. And then the decision on when the jump scare lands is up to you.

00;06;27;23 - 00;06;42;05

You know, you can be like, Oh, I'm going to fake it or I'm going to keep pulling it and make them even worse. And then there's nothing at all. And it leaves them kind of like wanting more. And then you hit them like it's all about a falls. Yeah, it's all kind of timing and just sort of how you do it.

00;06;42;05 - 00;07;06;20

I mean, the biggest one that I've I've probably had was in Z with the kid falling off and it's kind of like, so there's a scene where the main kid Josh is, he's become kind of an outcast and his friend's parents don't want him around anymore. So he, he gets suspended and King Kong and Tracy brings him to see him again to just sort of force him back into the situation and find out why they're not talking anymore.

00;07;06;22 - 00;07;24;28

And Josh goes, when he's there, he's like, is, you know, is I think Daniel, is he upstairs? And they're like, yeah, he's upstairs. And you can see the hesitancy on the mother that she doesn't want him to go up and play because she doesn't trust this kid. So she goes off. That hesitancy kind of goes away as their conversation gets more intense.

00;07;25;01 - 00;07;43;01

And then as the conversation kind of comes to a almost a close, the moment happens where the kid gets thrown off the stairs upstairs and just sort of slams through the frame. And, you know, for the audience, you have the setup and you know that she's she's scared of him going up there because what happens is what she's worried is going to happen.

00;07;43;03 - 00;08;00;28

But the conversation goes so serious and everything that we're focused, we've totally forgotten about it and so is the mom. So we're kind of like in the mom's headspace, just like narrowing in the focus of the scene. And then right when she's like at her most comfortable and they've kind of resolved their issue, the thing that she forgot about happens behind her and it's just like the worst thing in the world.

00;08;00;28 - 00;08;08;14

So it's just about taking, you know, you set it up, you kind of play with the audience for a sec, and then you go, Oh, remember this? We did that, you know, and then you hit them.

00;08;08;14 - 00;08;26;09

And then he's pretty. The kid. Yeah. Get hurt badly. Yeah. So when you're coming up with that, I know you're funny. So do you think those things are funny? Because I was thinking that's one of your strengths that you have in the thrillers from I've seen that. I've seen from that gang of people that we've all worked with.

00;08;26;11 - 00;08;37;26

One of the things that I've always noticed is that you get laughs in some of your scripts, where or not, in some of your screenings, where some of the other filmmakers that I know I find can't land jokes as.

00;08;37;29 - 00;08;53;26

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that there's some absurdity to it that when you react like that, you kind of check yourself and you're like, Holy crap, Like this thing just made me jump. And that's funny. And if you're in a theater, there's almost like a communal aspect of that where everyone's like, Oh, you jump to and it lighten the mood and it is really fun.

00;08;53;29 - 00;09;16;06

But, you know, I think Jordan Peele has talked about I think he's done sort of the best job with like get out where he has genuinely scary stuff, but then genuinely hilarious stuff because he's got like a great comedy background. So it's I think that they're just such you if you can weave them together and you can make the audience like feel this high and then this low immediately, it just creates kind of a rollercoaster effect for them.

00;09;16;06 - 00;09;31;23

So they're kind of like they don't know where they're going to be at any one point. They're just a scene happens and it's like, is this going to be scary or is it going to be funny? Or could it be both? You know, I think the final scene when, you know, everybody's sort of dead and the police lights pull up at the very end of the movie.

00;09;31;29 - 00;09;45;29

The original ending was cops, and it was going to be like, oh, the black violence thing. And he gets arrested. It's a really dark ending, but I believe it was a studio note to make it his friend. And so now you watch that and you're just dreading that like, Oh my God, he's going to be like, He's innocent.

00;09;45;29 - 00;10;15;09

But we know what happened. But the cops won't. But then his friend comes out and he says, Oh, on his DSA, and then you just like, Oh, it's such a feel good moment. And it it could have been a completely different feeling. But you go into those credits and you just love it because it's so fun. Yeah, you're not totally So I think I think there's just such a, you know, you look at the, the theater masks and it's comedy and drama and there's just so there's so interlinked because I think that just those two emotions, the highs and the lows, they just play together so well.

00;10;15;09 - 00;10;19;29

So if you can tap into that, it doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty, it's pretty good.

00;10;19;29 - 00;10;24;06

Okay, so list off three tips for making a jump scare work.

00;10;24;09 - 00;10;43;10

Have a set up you know, try and know your punch line ahead of it. It's not just like an improv joke. It has to have a structure. So you want to have a setup to what's going to happen. So you want to have whatever story device that's going to happen that's going to resolve itself in that same scene or later, whatever the payoff is.

00;10;43;12 - 00;11;02;02

And really just like Stretch the tension as long as you can, you know, try and distance yourself from that set up or try and, you know, if it's a someone walking through a scary house, just real every make it slower than slow, you know, you just want to milk every bit of tension that you can. And then really it's just about timing.

00;11;02;02 - 00;11;17;02

And a lot of that is just gut instinct. But when you do hit that, make sure that it hits hard and it all hits in unison. So like the sound, if you're going to have a jump scare like Stinger, make sure that's hitting on frame accurate like because if you get sort of a double stutter, it'll ruin the whole thing.

00;11;17;02 - 00;11;36;06

So yeah. So if you're like in the mix and you're looking at it, just make sure that the cut and the audio and the music, whatever all the elements that are happening, whatever it is, just make sure that they're landing for you. I think the hardest part about it is, you know, it's coming. It's hard to sort of step back and see it objectively.

00;11;36;09 - 00;11;53;29

So if you can sit and, you know, just I'm fairly good at it now where I'm able to watch something and kind of forget everything around it and just sort of see it in a vacuum, but just sort of trying to forget what you know, because it is really hard. I mean, at this level, we don't have test audiences and stuff like that.

00;11;53;29 - 00;12;09;03

We just can't afford it. So it is just very much, you know, your instincts and hoping it works. And so it's just focusing and just making sure that those moments because it's like a good joke if you if you fumble, if you fumble on the payoff and the the the plan.

00;12;09;05 - 00;12;10;14

Or even the delivery.

00;12;10;15 - 00;12;26;11

Totally, it ruins it. So it's it's it's just like the same as a joke. You just have to make sure you nail those beats and rehearse it and play with it and practice it. And then, you know, just hope it works because even sometimes they don't. Even if you get it right. There's a great book by Walter Merge called In the Blink of an Eye.

00;12;26;11 - 00;12;45;05

It's about editing and like how they, like, cut like the English patient and stuff like that. It's really short book, but it's really great because he he just he's, he puts it in such a eloquent way of how like he'll watch the same edit over and over so he'll, he'll watch the scene and he'll watch the edit and he'll be like, okay, is that right?

00;12;45;05 - 00;13;11;14

And then he'll watch it again and, you know, hit the button when he thinks the edit should be. And he does it over and over and over until every time he hits that button, the edit is exactly on the frame that it should be. So it's just this repetition. I mean, you know, you hear about comedians going to do stand up and they make everybody put their phones in those bags that they can't access and film and, you know, spoil anything, because a lot of the time, unless they're spending like an entire year just practicing and workshopping.

00;13;11;14 - 00;13;28;09

Right. And so they get to the point finally, when they do, they're set for Netflix, whatever it is. And now they've got it honed in and they've they know the reactions, they know all the beats and things like that. It's very similar to like a film screening. Like the first time I watch one of my movies, certain things land and certain things don't.

00;13;28;09 - 00;13;48;21

And it's kind of disappointing at first, but eventually you learn what is working and you kind of lean into it and, you know, if this is, it just becomes part of the experience. You just know because the audiences react very similarly because it is it's not like a comedy set where if you go to one place and you do another, your timing's off a little bit like, this is a movie so that the timing is the same the whole time.

00;13;48;23 - 00;14;00;17

But yeah, it's kind of fun because you know, like I'm like, oh, 28 minutes, there's a scare that's going to happen. I know what's going to get an audience reaction, so I'm going to pull out my phone and film it. And you have like a cool clip of everyone going like, Oh, and, and that's cool.

00;14;00;18 - 00;14;22;09

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Like, audience screenings is something you can't afford at this level. And another thing I just noticed is good actors, people who are, well, really good, well known actors, obviously they're what make our films. Yeah. And we're always trying to get the best actors we can with limited budget. How do you how do you go about that?

00;14;22;11 - 00;14;40;09

That's tough. I mean, a lot of it is because now that I've done multiple, I've got circles of people that I can talk to, you know, like when I did Super Host, that was such a that was my first, like truly soup. I mean, that's not true. It was, but it was a very low budget film and it has such small cast that I just cast it with friends and friends of friends.

00;14;40;09 - 00;14;54;25

And by that point, since I'd already done two, I had sort of a circle of trust built up where I could ask, you know, like I would ask someone, Oh, you know, Oscar Chow, you know, what's he like? How is he to work with him and say, Oh, he's great, he's amazing. And so you you, you use that information.

00;14;55;01 - 00;15;16;29

And I mean, ultimately, actors there's so many talented actors, right? Like, you can get a great performance from a lot of people. But to me, the most important thing is just having fun on set, you know, like having people that can do the work and do it well, but also enjoy their time, enjoy your company because, you know, I like to run a looser said like I get you know, it's just you get Red Bull in me and it's just like chaos.

00;15;16;29 - 00;15;40;09

So you need to you need to find people that are around you that can kind of like not not push away that energy. Because if you can if it gets very collaborative and very fun and it's just like, you know, movies are a marathon, they're just such a slog. So if you can find those people that you can surround yourself with that have a similar energy and they're there for the same reason, it just makes the experience so much more fun.

00;15;40;09 - 00;15;45;15

And, you know, when you when you walk away from that set, you've got like lifelong friends, which is, you know, so awesome.

00;15;45;15 - 00;16;09;00

So yeah, it's wild how much goes into just how much time is spent during a movie production. That is, I guess it's 24 hours a day. It feels like for a few months. Totally. And then the release and the pressure. Yeah. You know, even the actors, they all feel pressure. Everyone wants it to be received well, and you don't exactly know how well it'll be received, Right?

00;16;09;02 - 00;16;20;13

It's pretty wild. So speaking of wild experiences on set, tell me about that movie set in the desert where you guys ended up with an RV coated in blood.

00;16;20;15 - 00;16;36;08

Yeah. So it stands as Sands Red. That was the first time I ever got to work on a movie. Colin Minahan and Stuart Ortiz, They were trying to get this film done and it took place in the desert and I was, I was just like, Well, I lived in Las Vegas at the time, so I was like, Dude, the desert everywhere.

00;16;36;09 - 00;16;51;15

You should come here and do it. And so I kind of lobbied them to come out and we scouted some locations and I kind of made it impossible for them to say no. And that was just like the first risk take that I took in the in the business. You know, like I was doing, I was comfortably making commercials, but I always wanted to get into films.

00;16;51;15 - 00;17;16;26

So and I had this sort of glimmer of an opportunity. I was just like, Screw it. And I dropped everything. And I just was like, Let's do this. And I wanted that experience. But yeah, they came out and super small budget, you know, is like $700,000. So it was we just didn't have any, anything nice or anything. And you're working in the desert, which is so vast that scouting it and everything was just such a nightmare.

00;17;16;26 - 00;17;35;23

So we ended up getting this RV that we rented and it just sort of became our base camp and we could, you know, we could do makeup in there. We could we could just sort of get out of the cold because, you know, we're in the Vegas desert. It's still that cold. But yeah, just there was one night that we shot and it was a death scene and there's zombie and blood everywhere.

00;17;35;23 - 00;17;59;20

And it was so cold that the actor Merwin, after the scene, he was wearing basically a tank top because it takes place in the summer and it was freezing. And so he gets covered in blood and he just sprints to the RV and just dripping everywhere and just covering like it's like a dog coming in from the snow and he's just shaking and blood's going everywhere and for the rest of the shoot because that was like week one, maybe, maybe end of week one.

00;17;59;22 - 00;18;05;20

We just had this this RV just covered in blood for the entire shoot. Is so gross.

00;18;05;23 - 00;18;12;21

I remember it because I came in the second week and I was everyone was like, Watch out, don't go in there. I stepped in one time. I was like, Holy shit.

00;18;12;23 - 00;18;14;20

So it was like a crime scene. And it's all.

00;18;14;20 - 00;18;17;23

It was like, Did you guys have to pay a couple thousand dollars?

00;18;17;23 - 00;18;29;22

We we took it to a detailing place and they cleaned and it was totally fine. Yeah, it was like 500 bucks, but. Oh, so it all worth it because the guy. Yeah, that was it was so gross. It was just like a crime scene.

00;18;29;22 - 00;18;54;00

And that shoot as well. That was one of those indie shoots that we were talking about before we started rolling cameras today about how you guys are just like, Let's just make this because I remember they didn't have all the money when they started. Yeah, and they started filming that classic like scenario totally, which is challenging. Yeah. And I remember Stu, I was acting in one of the scenes and Stu was on the phone with I don't know who saying that they were going to give another 30 grand.

00;18;54;03 - 00;18;59;27

Okay. And he was I was like, You guys started shooting this movie without your money? Yeah.

00;18;59;29 - 00;19;22;27

Yeah, that was funny because they were financing it and just things balloon, you know, as they do. So you think that you need this much and you need a little bit more so and I didn't have any of those. I didn't have anybody at that time to, like, ask for money. So, yeah, it was kind of just, you know, I was so busy just running the next day, like scouting advance, you know, taking a drone out to the desert and flying around and coming back and be like, What about this spot?

00;19;22;29 - 00;19;41;26

And then, okay, Because I mean, another thing is we went to BLM, the Bureau of Land Management, ahead of time because all the deserts owned by the Bureau of Land Management and we we put out permit requests for everything and we had this very organized thing. And then we went to Wendover to shoot the opening of or the sort of the finale of the film.

00;19;41;28 - 00;19;59;22

And then the next week we were starting kind of principle, but over that weekend it was like Friday evening, all the permits were rejected. And so we were like about Monday we started in earnest and we had no permits. So we're just like, screw it. We're just we just stole every location except for Valley of Fire. They, they let us shoot there.

00;19;59;23 - 00;20;25;16

That was a beautiful spot. I remember being there. I also remember Collin just did not care about his car at first. They they tried to get permission to use the car. Of course, said no, and then they use it anyway. And then because he let me drive the car for that, I was really excited to be driving, but he was willing to let his car get destroyed in a sense, when a zombie was attacking it, he was like, You have to make this look real.

00;20;25;16 - 00;20;44;15

It's getting scratched is a nice Porsche. And then when I was pulling off into this, off this road onto the dirt, he was like, You've got to pull off more. And I'm like, Your car is bouncing along this or This is a Porsche. And he's like, I don't care. And I remember thinking like, Wow, that's what it takes, I guess, to make anybody really care.

00;20;44;21 - 00;20;45;27

And Collin definitely cares.

00;20;46;02 - 00;21;07;24

Totally. Yeah. No, he's super passionate and I think it was funny just because when, you know, he had a car, we, we were trying to rent like a black Ford Mustang or something like that because Ford was easier to deal with. But yeah, it was just like I had, you know, there was no second thought once once you sort of talk about prices of that stuff, you just go, Well, I've got a black car, I've got a nice car, let's just use that.

00;21;07;24 - 00;21;08;14

What do we have?

00;21;08;14 - 00;21;22;20

Yeah, exactly. And that's such a key thing, like when you're starting out to just look at what's around you and build a script from that. Because you can do you know, if you've got a a garage and you've got a nice car or whatever, it's just like, how can I utilize that in my film? Because that stuff's basically free.

00;21;22;22 - 00;21;34;00

And that's where you get production value, that's where you get all that stuff. And so it's just about, you know, it's such a key thing that you can you can tap into when you're first starting out because it's it's tough to get money the first time.

00;21;34;00 - 00;21;46;19

Yeah. I mean, that's one of my next questions here is like if you had advice for someone trying to get their craft together and they've got 500 to $1000000, what are the kinds of projects that you would write or that you would suggest?

00;21;46;26 - 00;21;49;01

But I've never had that much money.

00;21;49;03 - 00;21;52;04

I think that it goes to that. I want to take your movies.

00;21;52;06 - 00;21;56;25

Papa Man had like six something, but the other ones were all sub three.

00;21;56;27 - 00;22;06;07

Okay, so six, you got six A you're, you're giving advice to you who's never done it before. How do you make a 6 million or 600,000.

00;22;06;07 - 00;22;28;02

Yeah. It's, it's, it's challenging. I mean the one thing that I can do that not a lot of people do is that I can edit and do VFX. So a lot of people have to pay for that service and that adds costs, you know, to get a professional editor and to get VFX done. Like it's very expensive. So, you know, I can unfortunately I've put myself in a position where I can do those things.

00;22;28;02 - 00;22;46;05

And so it's like I need less money because my time doesn't cost me anything, just time, you know, And that sucks. And every time it happens, I hate myself for it. But, you know, it's just it's one of those things where it's like if you can diversify your skill set, that alone adds so much money to the budget that it's kind of invisible.

00;22;46;05 - 00;23;10;01

Like you don't need as much money if you can take on more things. And I'm not saying where every you don't want to be in the costume department, you don't want to be, you know, doing all the ad work and you don't want to be a grip or something like that on your on your shoot. But if you have the ability to to you know, because production is such a small part of the process, it's like, you know, if you're doing a 20 day shoot, that's four weeks of what's probably going to take you almost two years to go from beginning to end.

00;23;10;03 - 00;23;30;11

And most of the money is spent there. But a lot of it, you know, when you're doing your post budget, it's it can get super expensive, you know, especially if you have things like VFX and you've got sound mixing, you got music and all of these things. So anything in that level that's after the production of the film that you can take on yourself, I think is hugely vital to just being able to achieve something at a lower budget.

00;23;30;14 - 00;23;44;04

But if someone came up to me and said that I had 600,000, I don't I don't think it really changes the way I would go because that's still not a lot of money, you know, I mean, it it it gets complicated. The more money you have, you know, it's like the.

00;23;44;05 - 00;24;02;05

Things spiral up like you said to total week. Yeah. They all of a sudden just adding even a good cast member will expect a little bit more in the hotel and then they won't need a driver And then you're, you know, all of a sudden you've got somebody on payroll for the driving in that hotel costs and traveling them.

00;24;02;08 - 00;24;27;21

And so that's great when you get a good actor, but then their costs add up. Yeah, same thing with a scene with five people. If you have ten people in that scene, all of a sudden you need ten people to get through hair and makeup day and get on set it. It's like, Well, great, we've got a good scene, which is five cast of still all those people have to get mixed up and then all this stuff And so it gets it gets very expensive very quick.

00;24;27;24 - 00;24;45;16

Yeah no and also when you add like unions into the thing too, like the you know, if there's different budget tier levels that, you know, it's like 250 and under is like an ultra low budget, then you have like modified low budget all these it kind of has these tiers and every tier comes with different fees and different expectations.

00;24;45;19 - 00;25;00;28

And so the higher you get, the more money that gets eaten up by these fees and stuff like that. So that's why I'm a big advocate of just trying to do as much as you can with as little as you can, because it's just I want to put as much money that I have on the screen as possible.

00;25;00;28 - 00;25;15;00

You know, when you when you're starting to get to administer rate of fees and things like that, it's just it you don't get that. You're not getting like the bang for your buck, like you do an indie where it's just like, okay, I'm going to throw all the money at the screen, try make it look as good as possible.

00;25;15;06 - 00;25;29;21

There's just, you know, and it's just an unfortunate reality of the situation. The bigger you are, the bigger the footprint you have to travel. People you have, you know, you have to set up everywhere you go. And it's just, oh, we have to rent out this building next door so we can stage everybody. And it just becomes this like logistical nightmare.

00;25;29;25 - 00;25;45;25

But you need people and then people cost money. So it's just it's kind of exploding. So, I mean, the advice I would give either way, it's just. Right. Well, you know, and try and look around you and what makes you unique and what about your life is unique because I know a lot of people that I well, I'm just kind of boring.

00;25;45;25 - 00;26;02;23

It's like, Sure. But everybody's boring, you know? No one's like there is no Jack Reacher out there that's just going around beating up guys in bars, you know? Think that there might have been a guy that was just in a bar and he saw a fight and he's like, Oh, that's interesting. What if that guy and then you just sort of go down that path of the what ifs.

00;26;02;23 - 00;26;21;13

So it's taking whatever it is, you work a graveyard shift, whatever, that's great. Like you can what would be the worst thing that could happen in that scenario when you're right, you're at work, you know, take that and start expanding it and then follow. Just sort of go on a small snowball and just see where it leads you, because no one knows more about your job than you.

00;26;21;13 - 00;26;48;07

And you can find those idiosyncrasies of your job and kind of create characters out of that. And it's really interesting. So I think finding the story is more important than the set pieces and things like that. So you can take, you know, figure out what your story is. Why are you telling the story about this person or these people and then craft things around that that are that are relevant to their needs and wants, Because then then all of a sudden you've got a film that feels very cohesive and it's like a package thing.

00;26;48;07 - 00;26;54;03

And even though it's it's about your boring life, it's still very interesting because you're taking a cool spin on it.

00;26;54;05 - 00;27;19;05

You know, what's interesting is like without pumping your tires too much right now, you write, you have done commercials and so you know how to produce and make a budget. You have VFX skills, editing skills and directing skills. So in a sense, for somebody to come up and say, okay, I'm I don't have a film, but I want to be Brown and Christensen and I want to make a bunch of horror movies.

00;27;19;07 - 00;27;24;21

They have to learn all those skills in a sense, or they have to know that they need to start chipping away at a few of them for sure.

00;27;24;22 - 00;27;52;15

Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of indie filmmakers like Joe a Joe Boggess and like Josh Easier. They make movies, low budget stuff a lot of the time. And they're they're just a great partnership. And I think it's just the people that you surround yourself with more than just your own personal skills because, you know, if me and you are working together and you can do this really well and I can do this really well, then finding a way to blend those together so that we can kind of touch on even more like it's almost like a Venn diagram and you're finding out, you know, Well, I'm good at these things, he's good

00;27;52;15 - 00;28;16;00

at these, and then we cross over here, it becomes sort of a you're creating, you're creating more money for your budget just by being who you are. So I think that it's not impossible to do, you know, low budget films. You just have to surround yourself with people that are one supportive and two, just eager to kind of join you on that journey because, you know, no one does it alone ever.

00;28;16;08 - 00;28;18;26

You know, it's it's very rare that someone does it alone.

00;28;19;03 - 00;28;35;09

You need help that's in people in our life. We talk to each other and we talk to yeah, we talk to each other about our ideas as they're coming along and people, you get feedback. And sometimes I think when people don't respond to an idea, you're like, Okay, maybe I'll ditch that one, right? Yeah.

00;28;35;16 - 00;28;54;25

And I think that's a big part of it too. Like, you don't have to work with someone to have a circle of people you trust. You know, like if I can send or I can send a scene to someone, just be like, Hey, is this landing for you? Or whatever? And you just have this unbiased thing by someone that understands a position that you're in that's wildly powerful just to be able to to show them that and have that feedback.

00;28;54;25 - 00;29;14;26

Because, you know, as much as, you know, to be a director and a filmmaker like there is a little bit of ego involved, you need to drop that when you're dealing with that because it's brutal when people are honest with you about your work. If it's not working, you know, I mean, nothing's going to be perfect thing. There's going to be scenes, even in your best movie, you're going to watch a scene that you just cringed through and you just hate.

00;29;14;26 - 00;29;26;19

You. Remember what happened on set that day. You remember that you ran out of time. You remember all these things and you really just you forced the edit to get to the place where it was, where it's passable, but it's not what it could have been. And it drives you insane.

00;29;26;20 - 00;29;32;11

So and then you want to tell everybody about all these problems that you had. Yeah, but you just no one gives a fuck.

00;29;32;11 - 00;29;34;11

No one cares. All they care about is that.

00;29;34;14 - 00;29;50;14

Yes, that's the hardest part for me. Even sending off. I'm better at it now, but sending off anything is not writing all the disclaimers into something about like, Yeah, you know, and just saying, What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. So like, do you have a process for refining the ideas that you're developing?

00;29;50;16 - 00;30;06;06

I mean, a lot of it happens just naturally. Like when you write I'm someone that's, that's really bad at getting stuck. On page 25. I'll write an opening. I'll have a great idea for that. I'll take it all the way to the first act break, and then I get stuck there and I'm like, Oh crap, I need to, like, start a whole new thing.

00;30;06;06 - 00;30;21;03

I need to branch out into all these things. And it's kind of like you get scared of moving forward because you've got this, like really sharp opening. And so then all of a sudden you're like, I'm just going to go back and revise it, you know, and I'm just going to kind of rewrite what I wrote and see if it unlocks anything.

00;30;21;05 - 00;30;37;22

And then all of a sudden you're like, I kind of like this. This is neat. And you really focus on those first 25 and you don't ever just keep expanding and seeing what it can be. So that that's happened a lot. And it's a total just like our, you know, writer's block that just hits and it doesn't happen for everybody.

00;30;37;22 - 00;30;51;27

Like I write with my brother a lot now and he's just like, I'm going to get the pages down. I don't care. I'm just going to power through. It doesn't matter if it's good or not. And that's so powerful just to get it down. Because if you can analyze something and just sort of see from like a glance, you just go, Oh, well, that's not working.

00;30;52;01 - 00;31;06;08

But what would work there? And you just have that collaborative process. So like I've only written one script by myself and that was Super Host and that was even still like, I would send it to Kurt or I'd send a text and I would talk to them and they would have ideas, and you go, Okay, yeah, that's interesting.

00;31;06;08 - 00;31;18;07

And you kind of expand that. So I think that just goes back to just having people around, you know, not necessarily to work with, but just to have that feedback that you, you, you know, you can trust. Yeah.

00;31;18;07 - 00;31;34;12

And then trust their taste totally. There's some people I trust, but I don't actually enjoy their taste too much. But I do trust them to always be honest and I wouldn't be insulted if they said something. However, you also have to enjoy the person's niche of what they like, right. Which seems to be something that you felt like you found.

00;31;34;12 - 00;31;46;24

You and Kurt are both similar in a sense of the movies that you're making and Colin and those guys like that was like a very supportive kind of unit of people that all really like the thrillers and the horrors, right?

00;31;46;24 - 00;32;03;20

Yeah, and just good instincts, like. Yeah, and it's interesting too. It's not like if someone's like, Hey, you really have to pay attention to the note. Like, the note behind the note is something that people say a lot. And I think it's it's, you know, someone's like, Oh, well, that that character, they seem to mean or something like that.

00;32;03;20 - 00;32;19;22

And it's kind of a vague thing. Generally, they don't know how to fix it because they're not as in tune with the script. But if they're saying something kind of like reflect on why they're saying it, it doesn't have to be. If they're like, Oh, that scene where they do that thing that didn't make sense, don't just change that scene.

00;32;19;22 - 00;32;36;00

Kind of analyze the character as a whole and see why that scene's not working. So it's not it's not just that scene that's wrong. It could be the lead up, the buildup, any of the setup for that character or whatever happening in that scene that you just need to tweet to get it naturally. Yeah, get there. You know, so it's it's tough.

00;32;36;01 - 00;32;55;10

Yeah. I think it's sometimes like you're trying to figure out the plot point of a scene, but then you realize what's happening is the character stuff, right? And like, how is this scene how is this scene building onto what's happening later, I suppose is one aspect is it gets it's yeah, it is tough because they're all it's all sweater right Totally.

00;32;55;10 - 00;32;56;22

One thing connects to another.

00;32;56;22 - 00;33;15;10

Yeah you get the ripple effect when you start changing things. And I'm like, Oh no, that's change this change now that's, that's, that's, that's a terrible thing to happen. But yeah, it's, it's basically, it's sometimes you're forcing a character to do something and if your script is working, it should feel like it was easy when you look back at it.

00;33;15;10 - 00;33;47;07

Like obviously they did this and this and this, but there's so much work to make sure that that's natural. So when it's not natural, it kind of sticks out and you're like, Oh, like that feels off. And I don't know why, but it doesn't. And so it's, you know, it's massaging those things out. But yeah, it's, it's weird because when you get to a point where it's just like that aha moment, that's, that's like so, so awesome for everybody, you know, if someone else and that's why feedback is so important because even if they say something, it might be wrong, but it might inspire something in you to be like, Oh, I see what they're

00;33;47;07 - 00;34;03;09

trying to say. If I do this and that, you know, and you can kind of figure it out that way. So it's again, it's just having the collaborators and and it's hard to say that because, you know, I fortunately have a good group of people around me. If you're just starting out like you probably don't have that. So it's tough.

00;34;03;09 - 00;34;23;22

And I mean, there are a million resources online. You've got like subreddits for everything. So it's you can sort of find those people and find that feedback and but that's the risk taking part of it, right? Like you have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions because film is so it, film is the most unique art form in the world because it isn't made in a vacuum, you know, like the writer.

00;34;23;22 - 00;34;36;06

If you're hiring a writer to do whatever, they're in a vacuum. It's just like they're writing away in a room. And then all of a sudden you have the director come in and all of a sudden the limitations start happening. We don't have enough money. We can't get the cast for this. Oh, what if this character was this?

00;34;36;06 - 00;34;49;21

And so and you have all these things happening and all of a sudden you're basically rewriting the script, but your fingers have been cut off and so you're just smashing away at the keyboard. Then you get to the edit, you have to rewrite it again. And all the things that didn't work in production because of, oh, it started raining that day.

00;34;49;21 - 00;35;06;14

We had to go inside. The scene was moved. So then the editors like Arms are chopped off and he's slamming his face into the keyboard, trying to rewrite the script again. And that's basically what film is. And like, you don't have a painter that paints a picture of someone and then someone comes in and they have no concept and they start, they redraw it.

00;35;06;17 - 00;35;14;06

You know, you have a book that's really op eds on a book, sure. But you don't have someone writing a book. And then it just gets completely rewritten like.

00;35;14;09 - 00;35;31;28

Ten different scenarios. Yeah, it's you know, it's funny you say that because I said once that I said it a couple of times at the beginning of shoots. Hey, everybody, thanks for coming out. This is so special that we're here. We all agree to make this script as best we can. Like, how rare is that in life that all these people come together to make this one creative piece?

00;35;32;00 - 00;35;47;19

It doesn't happen very often. But then what you're saying is I'm missing the part where it's going to get totally fucked up. Yeah, there's so many ways. Six ways from Sunday at every stage. Yeah, all the way to post-production, you know, like, and you'll be, like, jamming to scenes together that didn't even make sense.

00;35;47;21 - 00;35;50;13

It's a miracle that movies. It's crazy.

00;35;50;13 - 00;36;09;27

Yeah, it is crazy. That's kind of part of the part that I love about it. And people. There's a great movie called Broadcast News where Roger Ebert is talking about how in life some people are driven to those high pressure scenarios because that's actually something they find exciting and we complain about it. Everyone in film talks about the war stories.

00;36;09;27 - 00;36;38;03

Yeah, but there's something about us and like same with people who are journalists, like that immediacy and I really love it. Like on set, especially sometimes shoot goes wrong and it's real tough. But you, you go, okay, let's just make it a movie. Let's fix it right? But I don't know if everybody is cut out for that pressure, the stress or like for a period of time when I was just started working at some of those studios, 24 hours a day, all the time you're expected to be on no matter what.

00;36;38;07 - 00;36;55;01

Yeah. And because you're servicing actors and people with massive egos and they're expecting that if they have a problem, they've just flown to Vancouver. Just matter. That is Saturday morning. Totally, you know. Yeah. So how do you think about that? About like everybody, the people who get into film and it, you know, they get cut.

00;36;55;01 - 00;37;09;23

Out. I think I well, I think it's interesting because film, again it's so diverse like the amount of jobs are there. And like when I was in film school, I didn't know what I wanted. I wanted to be a director. And then I was like, Oh, well, I kind of like shooting, so maybe I'll be a director of photography, but then I'm a, you know, I'm a narcissist.

00;37;09;23 - 00;37;27;09

So I was like, No, I'll go back to directing. And that became my thing. But there's so many positions that are still creative, like the props department. I love the props department is amazing. Like what they can build and find. Like I go on Facebook marketplace and find an old pay phone. I'm like, I wish I was props so I could own that and just have a reason to own that thing because it's so cool.

00;37;27;11 - 00;37;33;25

Because, I mean, it's those, it's bringing all the elements together and like, you know, wardrobe and there's so much creativity going on.

00;37;33;26 - 00;37;50;29

Hair and makeup. I was watching the movie. I don't want to say it because it's a good movie and the hair is so bad. I mean, they made this guys look older and his hair is so bad I couldn't see. And there's one scene where he steps out in the bright sunlight and I was just laughing. I'm like, they didn't have like a big enough shade because you can it looks so terrible.

00;37;50;29 - 00;38;09;07

And then you look at Bradley Pitt in this. Mr. movie, he looks amazing and the makeup is unreal and it's clearly next level, right? That's the thing to me where a lot of people don't have until you've seen it go wrong. Right. Costumes and and hair make production.

00;38;09;07 - 00;38;09;25

Department.

00;38;09;25 - 00;38;29;15

Production department, production design. It's just such a big one, too. That is very under appreciated, troubling people at large. Same with editing, too. Like, I think that's an underappreciated skill set. Like they tried to cut it out of the Academy Awards last year. Right, Right, right. It came back too many people. Yeah. Those little elements are, like you say, props.

00;38;29;17 - 00;38;30;19

That's what makes your movie.

00;38;30;20 - 00;38;47;05

Totally. And so I think people getting into the industry, they they can see they don't know that, you know, they don't know until they experience and they go on set like there was this kid recently. I had a friend who reached out. He's like, Hey, my friend's son is a senior in high school. He wants to get into filmmaking, but he doesn't know how can you have a call with him?

00;38;47;05 - 00;39;03;20

So I was like, okay, cool. So we had a call and I was just like, Well, what do you want to do? Like, what is your interest? Is like, I don't know. I just want to make movies. And I was like, Okay, cool. So fortunately Kurt was on a film producing in town and I was just like, Hey, can this guy come out for the weekend and just be on set and like, he can do whatever and he can just sort of see the positions.

00;39;03;22 - 00;39;18;02

And so he went out and he went for a couple of days and was just sort of I think he was in the department, but he was able to see everything and just sort of see how even though there's like a scene going on, there's so many departments outside of that that are working in unison, it's like this well-oiled machine.

00;39;18;04 - 00;39;31;19

And it's exciting to be part of that because, one, the pressure's a little lower than like a film. You know, the director has to take on the brunt of all that pressure. There's still a ton of pressure to make sure your props and all these things, you know, your hair and your wardrobe and they're all great. But it's a different kind of pressure.

00;39;31;19 - 00;39;51;17

You know, it's and it's it's there's these great positions that people make great livings on. And it's just it's a great place to work. You know, the energy on set, there's nothing like it when things are going. It's just this chaotic energy that is so fun to be a part of. And, you know, so if you're starting out and you there's so many positions that you can find interest in.

00;39;51;17 - 00;40;14;00

And like if I started over, I'd probably go into props because I love props. Were production design or something, you know, and just being, being able to focus my energy on this one thing because, I mean, directing is mostly babysitting. You know, most of your work happens in prep, you've got the script, you've got your shot list, you've got all these things you're building, but it's like you're building relationships with actors so you can communicate effectively with them to get them to do what you want.

00;40;14;02 - 00;40;29;14

And they're always resistant to do what you want because they want to do what they want. And so you're kind of managing everything. And it's basically it's babies, it's camp, it's summer camp. You're a counselor, everyone's the kids and you're just like, you're just making sure everyone's happy and doing the right things and all that stuff.

00;40;29;16 - 00;40;42;25

It's a lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control, it's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.

00;40;42;27 - 00;40;58;06

And just managing chaos. It's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like, you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, and even if you don't, you're acting like you do.

00;40;58;07 - 00;41;18;25

You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing. Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. Allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go, like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped.

00;41;18;25 - 00;41;25;23

And so they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is just like, well he doesn't know what he wants, so we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.

00;41;25;26 - 00;41;44;23

And you hear that a lot. Like, oh, the director didn't know what they wanted the director photography. All of a sudden he's picking all the shots and the identity of the film is and they're like, it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean, so ideally, again, like I've got a great cinematographer with Clayton Moore that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things we've worked together for since 2009.

00;41;44;26 - 00;42;03;07

And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it's just it's very it's amazing, you know? So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is.

00;42;03;07 - 00;42;16;12

And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively you can figure out what you can and can't do. Like I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time. We got to move on.

00;42;16;14 - 00;42;39;10

I know. I'm good condensing down and just being like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other thing that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that. They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that.

00;42;39;10 - 00;42;49;15

Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.

00;42;49;17 - 00;43;17;21

It's funny because you know you're going to go back to stealing it, the non union, where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just them and a sound mixer back to the fight, the final scene with him in the field when he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days.

00;43;31;23 - 00;43;47;17

00;43;47;17 - 00;44;00;18

Lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control. It's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.

00;44;00;20 - 00;44;18;08

And just managing chaos. That's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, even if you don't, you're acting like you do. You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing.

00;44;18;08 - 00;44;36;21

Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. And allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped in.

00;44;36;22 - 00;44;43;13

So they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is, just like, well he doesn't know what he wants. So we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.

00;44;43;16 - 00;44;59;29

And you hear that a lot. Like, Oh, the director didn't know what they wanted, said the director of photography, of sudden picking, of the shots and the identity of the film is and there like it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean so ideally again, like I've got a great cinematographer, Clayton Moore, that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things.

00;44;59;29 - 00;45;15;24

We've worked together for since 2009. And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it just it's very it's amazing, you know?

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So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is. And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively can figure out what you can and can't do. Like, I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time.

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We got to move on. I know I'm good at condensing down and just be like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other scene that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that.

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They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that. Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.

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It's funny because, you know, you're getting back to stealing at the non union where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director, Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just him and a sound mixer.

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Back to the fight in the final scene with him in the field. When he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days. And he went, He just told them, Hey, let's go do this right. And they're like, They would all be not even eligible for insurance if something had happen, but they did it right.

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That seems I love that part of our business. I'm not saying that's a good thing to do. I'm just saying sometimes.

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Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's and it's funny how much you can get away with, like if you're seeing the faces, focus on that because the emotion, the scenes, you know, and it's figuring out which scenes need the work. Like if it's just like a scene where you're just doing a little exposition, try and just hustle through that because the scenes where you need to, you know, do a gag or something like that, they always take longer than you expect.

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So if you can just focus on getting the main things and just keeping a tally, like, okay, we need an answer of the phone being dialed, like we'll shoot that later another day even if it's after production. Like I'll just do it in my garage, whatever. I do that all the time and it saves so much time because, you know, you'll see like David Fincher, he'll do a shot where Jake Gyllenhaal throws a book on a chair on a on the car seat beside him.

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These are like 75 takes and it's just but he's got 100 plus days for his films. On an indie world. You just don't have that. Like, you just need to make sure that every minute of that day is spent moving forward. You know, if you get lost, it's all of a sudden like on Z, for example, there is a scene and it's a dumb nothing scene.

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It's just a quick conversation between a mother and a father. And we're in this tiny office room and I go in on blocking with everybody. And then all of a sudden one of the actors goes like, Well, what if I did this? And then the other actors like, Well, no, what if we did this? And all of a sudden you're in this situation where everybody's watching you, You're like in a like a cage.

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Everybody's like looking at their watches. And we spent like 45 minutes talking about why she should step here rather than here. And it was nothing. It means nothing in the film. You know, it's such a small scene, but we spent so much time trying to figure it out. And until at the end, I just was like, everybody shut up.

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Let's just do it like we planned at the beginning and just we don't have time for this, you know? And it's so it's so it's so.

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Adam Big show. Yeah. So the actors are starting to do it, and then they do it more and more. And then all of a sudden you have these long blocking sessions and I, I don't. Yeah, I saw this one director completely lose control. He really did lose control. Yeah. And there is right to the end. Like the final scene.

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I remember he was fighting with the actor and the actors like, I'm not going to feel this way about this event. And he's like, What? And he's like, Please, just do it the way I'm asking for it. And he's like, No, I would be upset or something. I can remember exactly the details and I couldn't believe it. I was like, How is this happening to the But I guess that happens a lot.

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Big, big actors, especially. I mean, that's where it's so challenging because sometimes their idea is right.

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Right. But it's also time again, like you don't you have to make a decision now because, you know.

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You don't feel that pressure and they're not going to be editing, right?

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Yeah, I just I mean, I just did another film recently and I had some text messages the day before we were shooting a scene. And they're like, this doesn't make sense when going with this. And they're like micro analyzing the script. And I was just kind of like, like I didn't have a good answer for it. I just knew that the moment would likely work because I the way I saw it.

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And so I talked to another actor and I was just like, I like I don't like I don't want to offend them and be like, they're wrong or anything, but like, I just need to get this thing because it's very technical and specific, but I don't have the right way to say it. And he was just like, Yeah, just basically just say that.

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Like, just say it. That's how you want to see it. And so, like, I use that in the conversation. I said, I totally understand what you're saying but I know it's going to work because this specific moment in this genre and they're going to play together really well, you just you just have to trust me like we've worked together before.

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It's just going to, you know, if it doesn't work, it's on me. It's not on you. You know, most interesting thing to me is when you write something, you have a voice in your head. These characters say this line this way. Nine times out of ten, the actor comes out to a table read or whatever on set, and they say, In a way, you're like, Whoa, that's a was a shock to my system.

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That's not how I thought it would be said. And you can get lost and be like, Well, I need to recreate what I saw without realizing, like what they're doing is still good and valid, you know? And that's a big thing too. Like temp love, where you use like temp music in a movie and then all of a sudden you replace it with score or soundtrack that you get and you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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This is off. Because I've seen this so many times with this other thing. And it becomes that sort of issue of just like you have to step back and be objective about it because, you know, the audience will never know what you wrote. They'll never know what you were, what happened on set. All they know is what's in front of them.

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So if you can just step back and see it from that lens, it can change your perception on how things work, you know, and it's it's something that everybody struggles with. I still do all the time.

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You have a found footage film that you're editing right now. Are you inspired? Were you inspired by Blair Witch and Cloverfield like why did you decide to do a found footage from I Love Found Footage Film.

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I mean, in this particular case, it was a it was a gimmick that I'd never seen before. And I really wanted to do it because it's so novel. And so I think there's I think found footage is great when you can make it work properly, like, you know. BLAIR Which is so great because they're documenting a thing so natural that they would be filming.

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You know, you have something like Rec where it's like, you know, a news reporter. They're filming it because that's his job he's filming. It makes sense. So if you can get to that point where the reason people are filming makes sense, it creates makes it so much more believable. You know, like there was a movie called Dash Cam where it's a girl live streaming pretty much for the entire movie.

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And so it makes sense that she's constantly recording. The problem is when you get to those moments of, you know, the scary things like that, like why are they still doing it? I think the Blair Witch, they did a great job of it when they're like seeing things through the lens, gave you this disconnect and it made it easier for them to cope with what they were going through.

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And I think that was really smart. So I think I mean, found footage still has a ton of life left. It just has to be right. You know, like everything doesn't have to be the you know, there's so many you know, there's a ring doorbell on everybody's door, you know, what is that door? See, You know, you could write a story like a short film about that.

00;52;27;29 - 00;52;50;22

Yeah. And it's film footage. But it's not what you would think of found footage. So there's there's all these different kind of avenues of that medium that haven't been found. But I mean, Blair Witch, you know, it wasn't the first, but it definitely it did a new thing with, with how they did it in the documentary feel like all that was really novel but and going really hard into horror and creating this mythos.

00;52;50;22 - 00;53;10;06

But the biggest thing that they did was creating the viral marketing around it, which no one had ever seen. So people are watching these, you know, watching these news reports about these kids that went missing and their footage was found and there was this like this moment of, well, wait, was this real? Like when I saw the film, I saw an advanced screening in Langley, B.C., with my cousin.

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He got these midnight screening tickets. And when when we got them, this was 1999. And like, the Internet was still young. This is pretty social media. So all you got was the content they were giving you. You know, it's like, Oh, there's this website that has all this evidence of these kids. And so you're feeding, you're creating this feedback loop of everybody being like, Is this real?

00;53;28;22 - 00;53;57;13

So I went to that movie and I'm in the eighth grade and I'm like, I'm like watching these people getting hunted down and killed. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm watching this. Like, this shouldn't be legal, you know? And that was just insanely effective marketing. And so I think that's one thing that's been lost with film right now is just having the creator of the project or the director or whatever, being more involved in the marketing because like what happens is the movie gets taken from you and they do a trailer and it's telling.

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It's spoiling things that you're like, No, that's part of the experience is not knowing that, but it's out there for everybody. And ultimately it doesn't really matter because you're just trying to get eyeballs and I understand that like you need to sell the movie to be like, Hey, there's 100 million movies out there right now, but you need to watch this one.

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So we're going to tell you everything. And that's why everyone's like, Don't watch the trailers. It spoils everything. They're doing that because they need to show you the best bits so that you'll be interested enough to watch because there's no shortage of content. You've got Netflix, you've got Hulu, you've got Craig.

00;54;24;24 - 00;54;49;21

You've got amazing people making videos on their phones that are awesome. Crazy. I just hilarious stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Brandon, I want to end on a high note. That was so fun. I knew this was going to be fun to talk to you. And I would love to do probably another ten conversations because I had a lot of respect for you and I just knew that we'd be able to like, vibe out for a minute about all the crazy aspects of film.

00;54;49;24 - 00;55;07;07

So just to sign off, this is brought to you by Stryker and our mission with this interview series is to shine a spotlight on talented filmmakers and Canadian filmmakers, and our hope is to provide tools to help people make better films and to save time on set. So thank you.

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No problem.

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Host: Kyle McCachen

Today on the behind the scenes interview series, we have writer director producer Brandon Christensen. He's completed five feature films and sold them internationally and has another film coming out this year. For one week, his film Z, was ahead of Marvel's Avengers in the box office in Mexico. Brandon is a specialist in horror films and the majority of his films can be seen on AMC's streaming service Shudder.

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So thanks for being here today.

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Guest: Brandon Christensen

No problem.

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So if you were going to reflect on your journey in the film industry, having made five four feature films, do you consider yourself lucky?

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Well, break even or lose.

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Totally. So it's it's you know, it's a tough business model to present to someone that's you're like asking for money short of having just like a billionaire whale that you can, go to.

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What do you think is so special about horror and Thriller in the indie space? Because that's where you focus.

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So it's a little bit tougher to get into.

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So it's just about taking, you know, you set it up, you kind of play with the audience for a sec, and then you go, Oh, remember this? We did that, you know, and then you hit them.

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So if you can tap into that, it doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty, it's pretty good.

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Okay, so list off three tips for making a jump scare work.

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Or even the delivery.

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And, you know, when you when you walk away from that set, you've got like lifelong friends, which is, you know, so awesome.

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It's pretty wild. So speaking of wild experiences on set, tell me about that movie set in the desert where you guys ended up with an RV coated in blood.

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We just had this this RV just covered in blood for the entire shoot. Is so gross.

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I remember it because I came in the second week and I was everyone was like, Watch out, don't go in there. I stepped in one time. I was like, Holy shit.

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So it was like a crime scene. And it's all.

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It was like, Did you guys have to pay a couple thousand dollars?

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Okay. And he was I was like, You guys started shooting this movie without your money? Yeah.

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And Collin definitely cares.

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What do we have?

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But I've never had that much money.

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I think that it goes to that. I want to take your movies.

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Papa Man had like six something, but the other ones were all sub three.

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Okay, so six, you got six A you're, you're giving advice to you who's never done it before. How do you make a 6 million or 600,000.

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And even though it's it's about your boring life, it's still very interesting because you're taking a cool spin on it.

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They have to learn all those skills in a sense, or they have to know that they need to start chipping away at a few of them for sure.

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You know, it's it's very rare that someone does it alone.

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So and then you want to tell everybody about all these problems that you had. Yeah, but you just no one gives a fuck.

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No one cares. All they care about is that.

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One thing connects to another.

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You know, you have a book that's really op eds on a book, sure. But you don't have someone writing a book. And then it just gets completely rewritten like.

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It's a miracle that movies. It's crazy.

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Because, I mean, it's those, it's bringing all the elements together and like, you know, wardrobe and there's so much creativity going on.

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Department.

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That's what makes your movie.

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And so they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is just like, well he doesn't know what he wants, so we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.

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So they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is, just like, well he doesn't know what he wants. So we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.

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That seems I love that part of our business. I'm not saying that's a good thing to do. I'm just saying sometimes.

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Let's just do it like we planned at the beginning and just we don't have time for this, you know? And it's so it's so it's so.

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Big, big actors, especially. I mean, that's where it's so challenging because sometimes their idea is right.

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Right. But it's also time again, like you don't you have to make a decision now because, you know.

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You don't feel that pressure and they're not going to be editing, right?

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So if you can just step back and see it from that lens, it can change your perception on how things work, you know, and it's it's something that everybody struggles with. I still do all the time.

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Sean MacGillis 12/21/23 Sean MacGillis 12/21/23

Jennifer Tong

Dive into the dynamic realm of filmmaking with the latest episode of Behind the Scenes by Set Tracker! Actress Jennifer Tong, celebrated for her recent starring role in Netflix's 'Fakes,' engages in an in-depth conversation with host Kyle McCachen.

Join us as Jennifer speaks about the challenges of managing time pressures on set and provides insights into the fast-paced world of TV production. Jennifer opens up about her commitment to creating films that echo current cultural movements.

Actress - IMDB

Go to Podcast @ Spotify

In this candid exploration of the industry, Jennifer and Kyle discuss the delicate dance between authenticity and the demands of satisfying film and TV studio executives. Join us for an inspiring conversation that goes beyond the screen as we uncover the nuances of Jennifer Tong's journey.

Behind the Scenes by Set Tracker isn't just a podcast; Set Tracker is also a film and TV app. The app helps solve problems on set with communication tools and up-to-date scripts and schedules. Our mission is to help filmmakers save time all over the world. Subscribe on Spotify, share the love of film, and connect with us on social media @SetTracker, @_jentong, and @stokeshow to stay updated on all things cinematic. Immerse yourself in the magic where creativity meets the big screen!

Transcript below.

SET TRACKER

Today, on Behind the Scenes, we have actress JENNIFER TONG, star of Netflix's ‘Fakes’. Born on the West Coast she is presently acting and involved in various theater companies and Jen and I discuss how to navigate the incredible time pressure as a film actors, how to avoid crashing after wrapping a big project and the need to express your own honest opinions even when working in Hollywood. Thank you for being here.

JENNIFER TONG

Of course, thanks for having me.

SET TRACKER

So, right off the top, you were saying just now that you're kind of like a kid, like acting and playing make believe for your job. How does that make you feel about being both a professional, and a creative?

JENNIFER TONG

Oh, I'm eternally grateful because, you know, sometimes I forget that not everyone gets to play for a living. It reality checks me because I live in this bubble where I'm surrounded by different artists, all pursuing our passion for our career. Even though it can be hard sometimes, it's such a privilege. So, when the weather's right, I teach improv classes to first-time improvisers. Seeing the joy sparked in class, them being able to be silly without the constraints of what being an adult means is so refreshing. It makes me realize that not everyone gets to do that every day for their job.

SET TRACKER

Absolutely. In film, too, it's like, wow, we're lucky. It makes me think about being an adult, whatever that means, you know?

JENNIFER TONG

Totally.

SET TRACKER

When you're an actor, it's like you're trying not to be an adult in a sense. You're playing, you know? When I was in an acting class, someone asked, "Do you have anybody that you really tell the truth to, someone you're not trying to hide from?" It got me thinking. I realized, yeah, my brother, I never try to posture or pretend I'm too cool with him. But with a lot of other people, we have these barriers. In acting, is it true that you're trying to get rid of those barriers, be connected to whatever emotions are just coming up?

JENNIFER TONG

I think it depends. You know, there are characters where that is their true self, they don't have a filter, and they're more willing to share their true selves. But I find that most characters, most characters that I've played, have an inner world and an outer world. It's about who you let into your inner world and who is still on the outside.

SET TRACKER

Right. So when you're thinking about a character, when you're doing background, you're thinking about who does this character let in? They keep their posture up with some people.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, like, who sees the real me, the character me? And who am I still trying to prove something to or impress?

SET TRACKER

Mm-hmm. So you make a note in the script, like, "This person I'm trying to impress?"

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, I mean, it depends. If I'm working on a project for a couple of months, you already know because you've been in rehearsals or shooting for weeks. You don't have to notate on the script every day. But if I get an audition, and I'm doing script work on the scenes they've given me, yeah, that's something I keep in mind. Part of my process is writing down the relationship I have with each character in the scene or the moment before.

SET TRACKER

So you write down the relationships with these characters on an audition, even if you don't know sometimes?

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah. Depending on the project, some are more guarded. I've had ones where they send sides like secret spy shit, and you can't print or save them. But for auditions, I might make it up if I don't know.

SET TRACKER

What did we give you for Bad Press?

JENNIFER TONG

I think you gave me the whole feature. I got the full script.

SET TRACKER

You're not supposed to, and I can't remember.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, I think you gave me the full script and the audition sides, right?

SET TRACKER

Mm-hmm. Did you read the whole script?

JENNIFER TONG

You did read, I think. Yeah, I read through the whole script. Yeah.

SET TRACKER

There's a secretive nature to people's scripts, and every creative is different, every showrunner has a different need of security.

JENNIFER TONG

Oh, my gosh, I've met people who, you know, they'll be like, "Yeah, I'm working on this script," and I'll just be like, "Oh, cool. What's it about?" Just trying to make conversation. They're like, "Oh, like, I don't think I should talk about it. You know, I want to keep that close to my heart," which is, you know, respect. I think that, in this industry, to connect and make connections and build community, you never know who's going to be able to help you along. But I also get it, like, maybe they've been burned before, and someone has, like, stolen their idea or something. So...

SET TRACKER

Yeah, I mean, this is maybe not related, but I heard that to trust somebody is a risk. And when you get wisdom as you get older, it's because you have been burned, you've been hurt, but you're brave to continue to try and trust people. That's what bravery is. And early on, if you don't know you can be burned, then you're just naive. So I think that's, yeah, that's definitely something, like, how much do you share about whatever projects you have?

JENNIFER TONG

Who do you share it with?

SET TRACKER

With people you don't want to get their hopes up. If it doesn't go ahead, and you look like an idiot, you need to share certain things with other people to connect, to certain people. Like, "I love that script" or "I love that idea." Right. So that's probably, as an actress, you probably get people pitching you ideas a fair bit, right?

JENNIFER TONG

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I've built enough community in Vancouver where I have a lot of filmmaker friends who are constantly doing new stuff and ask me to read their scripts or to read for a role or just trying to test out the waters. Yeah, I recently did a table read for a feature that a couple of friends have been writing for two years, and it was just so nice to have everyone get together and share their thoughts and feedback on the script. And I could tell that my friends who wrote the thing really appreciated it and were so happy to see how people responded to their story.

SET TRACKER

Yeah. Now that's if you can get people to read your script. Like my brother, on his own, set up a table read at a library. Mm-hmm. Before it, it was a different version, but it closed a lot of stuff. I just can't believe that he went and got all these people to do it, and they did it, and it was great. It's so exciting to see your work actually get out there. Mm-hmm. Another funny part about our jobs is you make the movie or they make the TV show, or you write the script even, and then it's like, who's going to look at this? I know. I know. The show's done. Sometimes you just want to do...

JENNIFER TONG

Yes, of course. And you want eyes on it, and you want people to watch it.

SET TRACKER

Yeah. And that's so, like, what's that like for you? Like, let's take, like, when Netflix's face came out, like, you're like, "Okay, this is great. Now you go into the show, in fact has marketing events for you and all kinds of... Right? Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah. I mean, I think there is so much content these days, and with Fakes, it was, you know, a lower budget, kind of smaller scale Canadian production. It was made during the pandemic when we were still COVID testing and we were still having to wear masks. A lot of things were selective. And I think that it's just, what's the word? It's so not concentrated, but there's just, yeah, there's a lot of content out there. So how do you make your project stand out?

SET TRACKER

What is it? How do you do that? Even on screenwriting Twitter, I follow that. There's people who talk about, you know, like, every project you can be good technically, project needed technically. But if it's not saying something about the world, that kind of needs to be centered on a topic. What is your script? You're just having more drama between actors. My character wants something. But what makes it interesting is when he's, when it connects to his culture or a greater thing. You know, like, right now, I don't know where you create film about that made me feel like, "Wow, I really want to see that." Because it's happening right now.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah. But no, I think I agree with you because things are moving so fast, and people don't have a long attention span, right? So they want to see stuff that's relevant. They want to see stuff that they can relate to right now, that's poignant right now. But, you know, production takes time. And so how are projects supposed to predict what's going to happen in a couple of months or a year when their project is actually going to be shown to the world?

SET TRACKER

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Well, like, how do you think, like, it takes forever to make something? How do you get people to, like, really connect with something? But you hope that once, you know, sometimes you're like, "We did that." Yeah, you still have to tell. I know, I know. And then feedback comes, and then there's, like, a process, right? Yeah. And how do you think about marketing as an actor? Mm. Because some people are like, "Oh, that's the business side."

JENNIFER TONG

And it is. Yeah. I mean, it is kind of the more business side that I don't like. That's not the reason why I came into acting. Right. So and that's not my forte, but I think more and more I've been hearing that it's almost like you, me, Jennifer Tong as a person, as the actor, or as the Lee Jennifer Tong Chang as the actor, and both have to kind of coexist harmoniously in terms of, like, your social media presence. How you present yourself to the world is people are starting to look at that. Casting is starting to look at that, and producers and stuff like that.

SET TRACKER

You have to be honest about what you believe and who you are. The more people that do that, it will probably be better. That being said, if you're on a big Apple show, and there's $100 million at stake, and you don't know if somebody has a political opinion when you might be running the show, are you going to take that risk? I think a lot of people have that question these days. On the last interview, Andy Hodgson, a producer, cinematographer, mentioned creating a persona for himself on social media, allowing him to separate his work from himself. It's like saying, "Judge this work, but know that I'm still a good person even if it didn't do well." I found it interesting because he deliberately curates an image on his social media to distinguish it from his personal life.

JENNIFER TONG

It's almost like trying to sell not only your work but also yourself as a person. As an actor, it's prevalent because we've seen projects with issues due to the cast's bad history or unfavorable stances on world issues. But it feels dystopian, like my personality and values now have to cater to whoever gives me the next job.

SET TRACKER

So it's always about protection, not showing and hiding. Then you don't express what you truly believe.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, but it's to the detriment of yourself. You feel like you're not being your true self, and that can hurt your soul.

SET TRACKER

It definitely can. If you start lying a little to get ahead, you may forget to be honest as you climb higher. It's a slippery slope of losing who you are, lying for success.

SET TRACKER

It's funny because in job interviews, I was just telling somebody, "Don't tell them everything about yourself. Express your interest in the job and make them feel important."

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, selective truth.

SET TRACKER

I'm really backing up on it though...

JENNIFER TONG

No. I know what you mean.

SET TRACKER

There's a space for it. I also think that's the same with holding on to some opinions. Being careful when expressing political views online, knowing there's a big audience and understanding that culture shifts. How is that going to affect me?

JENNIFER TONG

Sure. Yeah.

SET TRACKER

How do you think about the project from a marketing point of view?

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, I'm in an interesting point in my career. I just had a meeting with my team two days ago, talking about the kind of projects we want to pursue. I feel like I can be a bit selective. If there's something I really disagree with or a network I don't want to work with due to promoting a certain lifestyle, I feel comfortable cutting off that arm or leg. Still open to opportunities that come to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are some blatant things I won't touch. If it's detrimental to my career, so be it. But doing something that goes against my values would really hurt me internally. I won't compromise on that. If there's a chance for conversation or understanding, I'm open to it. Shutting people out completely isn't the way to create change or spread opinions. There has to be an open dialog.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, that's the smartest thing. Discuss and connect instead of disengage. It's about helping others understand your perspective and vice versa. As an actor, turning down every controversial role might mean missing opportunities to work on impactful projects. You might lose the chance to be part of movies that explore complex characters on both sides, like stories about the Holocaust or characters like Walter White in Breaking Bad.

JENNIFER TONG

You never know where an opportunity will lead or how it will grow. But, you know, it's easier said than done. I've definitely been emotional in debates and discussions. Keeping an open mind is easier said than done.

SET TRACKER

And it's easier said than done to speak your opinion. I was making political commentary a couple of years ago, being clever, and then I got hired for an Apple show the next day. I realized I had to stop.

JENNIFER TONG

It's hard because so much in this industry is out of our control. It's not always a meritocracy. Sometimes you have to do a bit of people pleasing and ass kissing, which sucks. Unfortunately, as of right now, that's just how the industry works.

SET TRACKER

People might teach you more if they think you're open to learning. It's a tough balance between pursuing your ideals and the reality of needing a job. There are certain projects you won't do, and that's fine. You have to know where you draw the line. For example, someone in film school suggested Adult Entertainment for good money, but I knew it wasn't for me (laughs).

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, it's great for him, but it's just not something I feel comfortable doing.

SET TRACKER

Right. It's about being open to various projects while having a goal in mind. There's a direction you lean towards, but it doesn't mean you won't do other things that eventually contribute to reaching your ultimate goals.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah. And I think right now I'm like, open to a bunch of different types of projects, but there is, you know, a goal in mind, a way that I'm leaning of like the ultimate kind of types of projects that I want to work on. But that doesn't mean that I'm not going to do all this other stuff that is eventually going to help me get to where I want to go.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, what are the types that you get? Because I really like the role that I asked you before. You in your personality. Do you know what roles you get all the time.

JENNIFER TONG

Oh, yeah. I mean, I was just talking to my team about it, right? So I think that ultimately I want to do stuff that can change opinions and impact people's way of thinking. I think I also have a soft spot for comedy as well. So. And I don't think that doing a comedy isn't necessarily, you know, shallow and doesn't have anything to say. Usually comedies like, ah, it's kind of like a Spoonful of Medicine or sugar or whatever the metaphor is. You know.

SET TRACKER

I know a lot of quotes about what comedy is politically like. It's you can get comedy gets under the door while politics is fumbling at the handle.

JENNIFER TONG

Yes, I love that. Yeah. That sneakily getting itself in there by making you laugh and it's, you know, making you comfortable and stuff. But ultimately, yeah, something that says something I love, I would love, you know, fakes was definitely a dream project of mine. So when I did that, I was kind of like, Ooh, what's next? Like, what's something else I want to accomplish that I haven't done before?

JENNIFER TONG

And I was like, I would love to do something with action or, you know, I, I've done Muay Thai for the past couple of years, so like, something to, like, flex that skill off. Yeah. Flex.

SET TRACKER

So, do you shoot guns.

JENNIFER TONG

No, but I would love to learn, you know, how to shoot.

SET TRACKER

Guns shooting range.

JENNIFER TONG

I mean, yeah I'm in.

JENNIFER TONG

I mean, I am very much like, want to try everything, so yes to Action, maybe even like, I don't know, like a bridgerton esque kind of thing.

SET TRACKER

What's that show?

JENNIFER TONG

You don't even know what that is? Ok. It's fine. (Laughs) No judgment. It's just a Netflix show. It's kind of, um. It's kind of like Pride and Prejudice, sexy, like teen Buffy.

SET TRACKER

I’ll check it out. It sounds good. So what did your parents think of your choice to be an actor when you were telling them or when you were starting?

JENNIFER TONG

Me and my sister were raised by my mom, single mom working like three part time jobs. And, you know, she sacrificed a lot for us. And so I graduated high school. I was very much I had applied to the SFA communications program because everyone had kind of like urged me to do that because, you know, they were like, “you're outgoing, you're sociable, you're great with people, like this is something you should do.” So I applied for this, a few communications program and I got in, but I had also, you know, auditioned for the acting program at Capilano University.

Ultimately, I decided to do the communications program and so paid my deposit, went to the info session with my mom. And, you know, I'm like fully committed to start this in a month or two or whatever. But in the info session I just like was listening to the kind of stuff I would be doing in the next four years. And I was like. “Oh, hell.” Like, I can't. I don't want this to be my next four years. And so on the car ride back, I'm just like sobbing my eyes out and like I turn to my mom and I'm like, difficult. I think I have to, give acting a try. I just think I just got to at least try and if I hate it or if it doesn't work out, I can always come back and do communications. And my mom just looked at me and she was like, “I don't like it. But I understand.” And so I ditched the deposit at S.F. you and I went to CAP FILM and did the three year acting program there, and it was the best decision I ever made.

SET TRACKER

And it's so crazy. Yeah. Now, like, you know, you think about how far you come when you've starred in a Netflix show.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. It's, it's definitely wild to think about and I think some like as an actor, the career is very much up and down and it's very rollercoaster. Always kind of if you are constantly working at your craft and you're constantly trying and really dedicated, I think you know the possible odds are endless. And if you've got a good team that supports you, like you're going to be able to keep rising. And I have faith in that. And I'm excited to see what's next.

SET TRACKER

That's crazy. That's a great story.

JENNIFER TONG

I know sometimes I'm wondering, like, what is a corporate job like? Jen Look like does she live in Maine? Silver lake? Is Jen dating like, a tech, bro?

SET TRACKER

I heard somebody else say this, but I think every now and then, maybe we should all do a boring 9 to 5 job. Maybe we should all go in and you stock shelves or something. Every now and then when I'm like, “Oh man, this film is so difficult.” Or “This film fell apart.” Or “We were so close here.” And then that didn't happen. Or when we're actually filming something and you're going and then two days before you get sleep, you know, and I imagine forgetting about all that stress. Because film is mad. I understand why people have a job landscaping.

JENNIFER TONG

Oh, my God, Yes.

SET TRACKER

When I was 17, I did construction. I get that. I know people who do regular jobs. I know somebody who is a plumber who is very happy makes good money has a nice family and I really I get it. Of course I say that now. But I would never do anything else but film.

JENNIFER TONG

That's the thing because I too I'm like I sometimes envy the people with like a 9 to 5 who can just leave all their work at the office. And then they have weeknights and weekends are just completely their own. I think in this industry we're constantly thinking about the industry and our jobs and stuff. It doesn't really ever turn off.

SET TRACKER

When you're on set, like when you're on set and you have to go to work. You don't have 9 to 5 hours. No. You have that massive scene coming up. So you can’t sleep.

JENNIFER TONG

Literally when we were shooting fakes I would be out of the house from, I don't know, 5 a.m. until 11 p.m. or 10 p.m.. And then I would get home and I would pop a melatonin, say hi to my boyfriend and learn my lines for the next day, sleep, and do it all over again. And that just the life and I wouldn't trade it for anything else but it's because and I think that's when I know that I like, really love what I'm doing because if I say that to someone and they're think, “That is frickin fucked up,’ you know what I mean? But for me, I'm like, “That's so exciting and I love it" and it's so fun and it's what I want to be doing.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's lucky. But when I get the rare opportunity to direct something that. That's more than, like, a day shoot, I will drop 10 pounds. Because you're just going and going.

JENNIFER TONG

You're just nonstop.

SET TRACKER

And my pal is a director who did the movie “Influencer” shout out to Kurt Harder. He says that after you finish shooting and you got the film in the can, there's always a crash because you're so high filming that you have to crash.

JENNIFER TONG

Oh yeah.

SET TRACKER

Like as soon as you're down and you got to do post and there is so much to deal with in post-production. And he's like, “I usually have a downer episode.” And I for sure understand that crash.

JENNIFER TONG

So the down happens in between, like after you wrap?

SET TRACKER

You are still going hard in post. But I think that just directing is such a high for a lot of directors and maybe I think it's different thing for Kurt and for myself. I've been involved in like spending my own money. Probably what I was thinking too, it is like producing and directing gives you a crash when you are done.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah.

SET TRACKER

As well. This project that he did recently, he raised the money for it. He wrote it and he directed it. So then I think the crash is: “how is this going to shape up?” And when you're directing, especially for Kurt, he was all over the place for 30 days. 40 days. He was so high for so long. So that crash is pretty harsh after, but is it typical? Do you have a little bit of a crash when you wrap?

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, I think the crash is both physical as well as, like, mental because you're just like running on adrenaline for, you know, three months straight and then suddenly you're like, Whoa, I don't have to be anywhere at 5 a.m. tomorrow. Nothing I have to do. Like, I get to choose what to wear. Like, you know, it's kind of like, Oh, but it's exciting. And you got to find that balance, which is difficult.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, that's the thing I think about it is as your career, there's stories of really successful people who like Will Smith even or Johnny Depp in the last couple of years. These are the top. In the industry start to see like the cracks. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship that made me stress out to the point that Will Smith seem to have gone through that, you know, like his problems are being aired publicly and it must be so difficult because he's so famous. I think for a while all of us assumed that he was the most successful actor ever. I think there's a shift about like star power in Hollywood. Look at Tom Holland who talks about getting off of social media and Hollywood being too much. I believe there's a little shift happening with the expansion of international movies as well, where the star appeal is shifting and people are starting to take mental health issues seriously. Like in Vancouver we used to shoot 12 hour days or each shoot 12 hour days. They still do, but we used to go long all the time.

JENNIFER TONG

I think COVID really helped with that. Like when, you know, the pandemic hit and there were all these new rules they did talk a lot about we got to like shorten those hours and stuff. But I don't know studios, they're kind of like to get the shot. I feel like they're willing to go overtime. And I was sometimes, some studios and stuff want to shoot long days.

SET TRACKER

It’s directors. And all directors would cut off their arm for another shot.

JENNIFER TONG

Yes, exactly.

SET TRACKER

So they're the ones that always want to get more shots.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah. And then, you know, I've been on set where it's like the fight is the tension because it's like the director is like, we need to get this last shot. None of this makes sense without it. And the producers are like, “No, you literally have one minute.”

SET TRACKER

Now I actually know that feeling of like you need this shot or else this will not cut together.

JENNIFER TONG

Exactly.

SET TRACKER

And I've also been the guy who's had to shut down. Yeah, but those shows, when I've said that it was on like really high end. Actually, there's one time I was on a show where I kind of screwed up and I told the AD, “Now your calculations are off”, and our director was standing right there. I said “we don't have 40 minutes, we have ten more minutes. We have child actor here.”

JENNIFER TONG

And they've got to pumpkin.

SET TRACKER

Exactly. Like you cannot change that rule.

JENNIFER TONG

Yeah, I mean it's about yeah it's efficiency in time. That's where you're 100%. Pretty much 100% always running late on a production. Like I. I don't think I've ever been on a production. We're like, Oh, we have lots of time.

SET TRACKER

Totally.

JENNIFER TONG

Like, damn, like, everybody take an extra like our lunch break. Like, that's I don't think that has ever happened to me.

SET TRACKER

What's it like when you have to, like, hurry up and wait? Like when they're like, “Go to your trailer and then you go in a trailer and wait.”

JENNIFER TONG

Literally when you go on set they got everything timed out. For you as an actor, they've got everything timed to the minute. So it's like you have this time to this time to have breakfast and then we're going to get you to hair makeup at 1023. And by 1057 you're going to be done hair and makeup, and we're going to travel you to set for like 1101.

JENNIFER TONG

And they they've blocked it out so, so well. And but that's like best case scenario, right? Like, this is their dream, their ideal. But, you know, there's so many moving parts on a set that like the ideal usually doesn't happen because there's just so much going on all the time. And so often instead of traveling to set, they'll send me back to my trailer and, you know, they've rushed me through hair and makeup because they've only allotted this amount of time because they're hoping that we'll get to shoot at 1115.

JENNIFER TONG

But camera, something's going on with the camera. And like, you know, this person's missing or like the director wants to make a change or whatever. And so I'm waiting in my trailer until like 12 p.m. or whatever or, you know, I've taken naps in between hair and makeup to traveling the set. I've had friends say that they get all done like they're wearing a frickin long ball gown.

They've got their, like, hair and makeup done. They're in the trailer for like 8 hours. The end of the day around, they're not used at all. They're scenes cut there. Yeah. So it's like.

SET TRACKER

Oh, that's wild. I do like, we always try to make sure we don't hold somebody for 6 hours wrap, but it happens.

JENNIFER TONG

And it's just there's so many moving parts.

SET TRACKER

The reason we do that is cause like when, when I was in the production role and we would have that kind of thing happen, it's like it's better to keep them there just in case that director needs them back and they're going to get paid.

JENNIFER TONG

So but now somehow costs the production more money ?

SET TRACKER

Yeah, but it's necessary.

JENNIFER TONG

Just in case.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, it's weird, but you do it because you don't want a situation where your leads actors have to switch or the director wants to bring up a shot. We worry about turnarounds and stuff. So when it comes to it, number eight or ten or whatever, you're just like, just hold them here. Yeah. It's like and that sucks. The worst is when you hold them and then you don't need them at all.

JENNIFER TONG

I mean, I think as an actor, as, you know, a working actor, it's kind of like, Oh, if you're not on an episodic rate, which is when you get paid just kind of like a flat amount per episode. So usually that happens for series regulars like for Face Me and Amelia, we were on episodic raid, so it didn't matter how long we were on set for, how many days we were called for. So they worked us to the bone. No, but you know, the show very much revolved around our character, so we were pretty much in every scene, blah, blah, blah. But like, if you're just a day call or if you're going like by day rate, like it's some actors are happy to just get hair and makeup and chill in their trailer for 8 hours, get paid their thousand dollars or whatever and peace you know so it depends but it still is kind of like.

SET TRACKER

It's a weird thing like, getting the guy into makeup. He was supposed to have been shot in a comedy, and so he's like getting a little get blown quick. I mean, like our lead actor had to get on the private plane and they were out early. So we're like, Bring this scene up with you that's going to play like we're running out of daylight or something.

SET TRACKER

So there is like three or four people putting blood on properly, like make up artists. Then, we're running out of time. And we all jumped into a golf cart that I was in the golf kart as well with three makeup artists.

JENNIFER TONG

They were doing it as you were driving?

SET TRACKER

Cleaning the blood off of them.

JENNIFER TONG

I mean, that's the thing. Also, like specialty makeup and like, props to all the like SFX makeup artists out there. I did an episode of like Fire Country where I was messed up and it took like, like every day I was in the chair for maybe like 4 hours, 3 hours and stuff because there's like, put on and then there's also like removal too. So, you know, the hair and makeup people are, they're like, like if you're shooting from top of day to end the day, like for like 14 hours, let's say they're there for 16 hours or 17.

SET TRACKER

Transport does like 18hrs.

JENNIFER TONG

You know. Yeah, but they do get to nap in between.

SET TRACKER

Yeah, this is true.

JENNIFER TONG

Me I sleep soundly in my trailer.

SET TRACKER

I'm like, I've had a few naps. Okay, so that's really awesome. I would just like to ask you a question about can you share? I have a story about the first day on set. Using a smoke machine gun and I just like completely blacked out the set, the monitors are black and you can see actors coughing and I was so embarrassing because everybody sees you on set. Do you have any story you can share like that?

JENNIFER TONG

An issue? I'm trying to think, oh.

SET TRACKER

Too much fresh air? I don't know…

JENNIFER TONG

I mean, there's the I mean, there is one day where I'm wearing this like, white ass blazer. It is like pristine. And we're obviously already running behind. And I'm like, having my second coffee of the day and I'm like, trying to drink this coffee and like, the lid wasn't put on properly or something. And so it just spilled all over the front of my like white blazer.

JENNIFER TONG

And they had already set up the shot. We had already done blocking and we were about to rehearse and I just tried to take a sip of my coffee and it was just like it was very much of it. And they had.

SET TRACKER

A bunch of coffee all over everything.

JENNIFER TONG

And so it was all of a sudden it was like code red, like people were literally texting code red to the producers. I was like, like, do we not have like a duplicate?

SET TRACKER

Do we not have like a back up?

JENNIFER TONG

Second white blazer? And so it was just like, yeah, sometimes you don't have duplicates. And so they had like costume come from circus to set with like they're like still like steam cleaner. And they were like trying to get this and like, you know, I heard about that for like weeks after.

SET TRACKER

You need a plastic bib. Well thank you so much. Like, this was been an amazing chat. I knew we'd be able to just chill and chat about things and. Yeah, I was. I'm so thankful that you could come.

And our this interview series is supposed to shine a spotlight on Canadian talent and talented people, and it's brought to you by Set Tracker, where that's our goal is to hopefully inspire people to be bold in their careers and help people make films.

JEN

Oh yeah. Thanks so much. That was excellent.

Sean MacGillis 12/13/23 Sean MacGillis 12/13/23

Andy Hodgson

Join us on an illuminating journey through the lens of cinematography as Andy Hodgson, a seasoned Cinematographer and Producer with over 150 credits on IMDb, sits down with host Kyle McCachen of Set Tracker. Together, they delve into the ever-evolving world of filmmaking, exploring the intersection of A.I., artistry, technology, and career growth.

Go to Podcast @ Spotify

Join us on an illuminating journey through the lens of cinematography as Andy Hodgson, a seasoned Cinematographer and Producer with over 150 credits on IMDb, sits down with host Kyle McCachen of Set Tracker. Together, they delve into the ever-evolving world of filmmaking, exploring the intersection of A.I., artistry, technology, and career growth.

In this episode, Andy and Kyle explore the captivating realm of Artificial Intelligence in film. Discover how A.I. is reshaping the cinematic landscape as a producer and accept that it is here to stay. Gain insights into staying ahead in the industry, with Andy sharing his wealth of experience and offering valuable advice on promoting your career as a visual artist.

Behind the Scenes by Set Tracker is not just a podcast; it's a rendezvous with the minds shaping the future of filmmaking. We are here to shine a light on talent in the industry and hope to inspire others to be bold in their film and TV careers. Don't miss out on the latest episodes. Subscribe on Spotify and share the love of film. Connect with us on social media @SetTracker, @andhod23, and @stokeshow to join the conversation and stay updated on all things cinematic.

Transcript below.

Set Tacker Today, I'm thrilled to introduce our guest. Your experience, Andy, with cinematography and the entire camera department is impressive. I love it. It includes darker movies like thrillers and also some comedies, like the very first Letterkenny videos. Thank you for joining me.

Andy Thank you for having me, Kyle.

Set Tacker So to start, I'd like to mention this interview is brought to you by Set Tracker, where I hope our discussion can shine a light on filmmakers and possibly inspire others to be bold in pursuing their creative aspirations. Now, to kick things off, I'd like to ask you if you thought that your career would turn out this way when you started?

Moreover, did you envision reaching that? Did you envision reaching the heights you have where you've worked with some of Canada's top actors?

Andy Man That's a good question because I had to. I was never really intrigued with film as as I grew up as a young kid. I grew up in Central America with no television, so it wasn't like movies or, you know, cartoons or things like that were kind of in my presence as an early age. But I sort of fell in love with the arts when I landed in Vancouver and started going to Capilano Film School. Did two years there in Graduate. And then I found this sort of this I my I just kind of fell in love with lighting and and, you know, framing and what you could do with the camera and movement.

So that's kind of where I discovered the passion for filmmaking and specifically cinematography.

Set Tacker And that's amazing. I went to cap, too, and I'm the same way. I didn't initially think I was going to be a filmmaker. I was snowboarding and then I went to film school and I fell in love with it when I was about 20, I had been filming, but I didn't fall in love until I was a young adult.

So your online portfolio is great and I think you've got a very unique style comedians, singers, filmmakers. I think they all have this challenge of how do they market themselves when they're trying to be a professional and be creative. Do you how does this challenge how does this how do you feel about this challenge in your career? Oh, the creativity.

Andy That's one of the toughest, because I think it's you know, you're putting out work that speaks for yourself and it's your message and it's things that you love and and are kind of holding the air to. And then for people to kind of take a look at and judge or like or dislike. You know, so I think in a way there's got to be a bit of a disconnect to the art at times where you sort of release it to the to the world.

And that's sort of what all you could do to it, because then it sort of has a leg, it's got its own legs. And I think creatively it's tough. It's, you know, you've got to stay relevant, you got to stay current. I mean, you and I come from the non Instagram game, the you know, the the TikTok, the YouTube.

And so I think it's kind of like learning a little bit of what sort of the younger generation is doing and also seeing what the older generation has been up to and being kind of stuck in the middle and playing ball with both. I think that's really important to stay relevant and current.

Set Tacker You know, you're so good. Like I think you had such a great style. That was how I recognized you before We met was from your great photos and your image of yourself to you've put really great photography of yourself on there with. To me, it jumps out as being somebody who is an artist.

How do you think about how do you think about creating that persona?

Andy Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I, I kind of separated myself a little bit. I like to dabble in a little bit of everything. And as you can see, some of those photos are definitely high end photos, you know, taken time modeling photos. And so I think for everything that I do, it kind of challenges me.

And I've learned a lot through even those photos of the crazy haircuts and some of the modeling photos of like being in front of the camera because I'm always behind the camera. So I now feel what an actor feels. I'm now you know, being lit. I'm now being told I'm now being told to direct. So even though some friends of mine are like, Well, that's so outrageous, I'm like, But this is me.

Like, I like to explore a little bit of everything. I'm not shy to to play within the medium. And I think that's a good way to separate myself. You know, you see other cinematographers or producers, they kind of just post their movies or things, you know, maybe you don't see their faces on there. But I think for me, it's relationship building.

You know, I think it's important for people to see me who for who I am and the style that I bring. And, you know, sometimes it might be intimidating, but at other times it pays off because they're like, Wow. Like, exactly like what you said. Like, you're so cool in your style. And I think it's important for people to see who they want to work with, not just their work of, like, beautiful images.

And I think I bring a unique style with some good flair. And you can tell that through those images. Certainly. Certainly. I think there's a lot of truth to that in how people find us now on Instagram and some producers recently I worked with had to replace a director and I was immediately sending them to Instagram of the director and they were looking at it.

And some of those decisions happened really quick, so you get a snapshot of them. And for me, looking at your Instagram, I thought to myself, I need more pictures of myself there because I do have just my work mostly. Absolutely. And that's also to like your own confidence. Right. And I feel like when people are looking at that, they're not really going to be sort of judging your work for, you know, I think if they can see some sort of human connection, they can see where those images are not coming from.

Right. So and it's bold. It's bold. It's like my haircuts, I would say my work. Yeah. You got to stand out. You got to stand out. And it's a challenge for all creatives to market themselves because a lot of them don't think that they need to be commercially doing marketing and that they're just doing the art, which I kind of understand that argument because it's a balance.

But I do think that it's important to take consideration of like, how are you putting yourself out into the world in this business?

Set Tacker I noticed that you put some 35 millimeter film shots up the other day. Just tell me that's amazing. You still shoot with 35 mil??

Andy Yeah, I'm. I'm bringing it back. I mean, I know there's a couple of guys out there, you know, normally Chase Urban, some guys that have been shooting film for a while, who we kind of came up with in the film game here.

And yeah, man, a couple of years ago I just sort of I just wanted to kind of revert back to the simplicity and to the to sort of the methodical organizational way of like that. You have to shoot film. It's, it's very regiment, it's very militant, It's very you know, you can't just keep rolling. You know, you have to you have to pretty much sink deep and start rehearsing, rehearsing, rehearsing, rehearsing.

So I like that. I like these sort of slowed down ness that it gives us on set. I think it it makes something very pure as coming from like the film days to digital in the mid 2000s. You know, everybody just kind of was able to shoot. And if you look at today's world, you can pick up a camera, you can pick up your iPhone and shoot.

And it's making us I think it's just making us a lot faster in terms of our image creation. So I think what film does for me, it kind of slows my process down. It it makes me think again, you know, kind of back in the day. So it's been it's been good and it's been good practice as well.

So I've done the last couple of films shot on film. 16 mil, 35 mil. And I feel it's I think I'm going to keep doing it as much as possible because images to me now with digital, they can be so beautiful and so short, but there is nothing better than just to capture something so natural through the the camera and through through film.

And I've always been a cinematographer for who uses a light meter, even though, you know, these new technologies with the waveform, with the all these other exposure sort of information and levels that you can get in the camera, I'm always metering. I think that's kind of my do my old school way of cinematography and I refuse to look at any monitor for exposure and just use the meter.

So I think also that works for me in film because I'm I'm very regiment again and militant about metering everything I'm doing. What are my shadows that what are my highlights. What is that window looking at? What is the you know, the fall off of the wall. So yeah, I think it's it's it's good practice and I was telling my, my loader the other day I had Panavision, I said, you know, this is all good practice to go shoot a feature on film.

So I've been doing a ton of shorts and it's great practice man. And it's bringing me back to, to what's real, I think. Yeah, yeah, certainly I, I saw that and it made me look at my Super eight that I bought, which I never did. And I'm going to buy the film and I have plans now over Christmas to shoot my niece on a skating on lake.

That's beautiful. We've been to before and I'm like, I'm thinking, I know I'm going to see her and I'm going to get some I'm going to make a little 30 second video.

Set Tacker This is a great segway into the question I was gonna ask you about because you mentioned film and digital and how that news is changing.

What are your thoughts on AI? The conversation around it? Is it scary to you that it might replace our our cracks in our career, or are you thinking that it might be like digitization of film from the into the video world where it actually expanded and created more jobs?

Andy Absolutely. I think that's a loaded question. I certainly I mean, to me personally, it I feel it's a tool, something that's going to be helpful, used in the correct way.

You know, I feel that sometimes these new technologies come out in their use incorrectly. We will lose some jobs. I believe. I think we will lose some jobs that we will generate others, whether I don't know what those others are going to be. But just like I remember when digital came out, everybody was like, Oh my God, film is dead, film is dead, and look at film now, like, So I think everybody's always going to want that human experience.

I think air is going to be there to support us and help us. But in the end, you know, kind of going back to what I'm shooting, why I'm shooting film, right, That kind of humanistic experience, will it help my job? I definitely think it does. I mean, I just started messing around with chatGPT for the first time, so I'm kind of integrating myself as well.

I think it's important to kind of stay relevant, but will I let it like drown me in my career? I don't think so. I think I'm going to be able to sustain, even though the technology is really advancing fast, because in other ways, too, as like you mentioned, I'm a cinematographer, but I'm also a producer, so it's really important to as beautiful as those images are, I also need to know the back end because it's a business and I think that's where my strengths come in.

And if I want to come in and start shooting their movies, well, I'll just distribute those movies or I'll try and pivot. So I think it's it's going to be good. Some jobs will be lost, others will be see growth.

Set Tacker Nice. And when you mentioned pivoting, what's your take on how important is it for you specifically to be able to be nimble in your career because you have been a cinematographer, you have directed, you've worked on the camera side and you've produced?

Andy In today's film game. I don't think most of us just do one thing, right? So I think it's important for cinematographers to perhaps learn the back end or producers to learn more on set and sort of branch out because, you know, you're more valuable for the more things you know.

And I think, you know, when I started producing, I was very scared of it because I was just a cinematographer. I knew nothing about it, but I looked at the long term goal and I was like, okay, well now I'm going to be learning about back end. Now I'm going to be dealing with people giving me money. Now I have to get insurance now.

I got to crew up everything that comes with that. And it was very, very scary at first. You know, you're handling people's money. But I think that diversity and the fact that you're able to have those tentacles in different pools is going to be really important. And anybody can make a pretty picture, right, as you can see on Instagram or YouTube for some people's reels or whatnot.

But it's like, how will you survive in the back end? And I think the end is a little bit more as I grow up. Cinematography is always going to be there for me, but I look at it more as a business than in terms of like selling my movies or, you know, film festivals, you know, distribution. So it's you got it.

You should have a bit of a balance out there.

Set Tacker I'd like to ask you what your parents, where did they work when you were growing up and what did they think when you told them what your career plan to be in film?

Andy That's a good one. So long story short, my parents were working in the Middle East before I came to Canada, so I've been in the Middle East for about 10 to 11 years with them and my stepdad is Canadian, so he had to just sit. And I come to that. We come to Vancouver and then I discovered film.

I will say a defining moment in my life in in terms of parents. I had gotten a job when I first moved to Canada at the airport to kind of help me get through through film school. And I remember one day a friend of mine said who was working in film, he said, Andy, do you want a grip on this memo?

There's a memo. I know the key grip I can get you on set, and I'm thinking, This is it. I got to jump. So without telling my folks, without telling anybody, I quit my job at the airport as a screening officer. It was union work. It was getting paid really well. But I quit cold turkey. I didn't even notify the company.

I quit my job at the airport I called them one day pretending I was sick. They thought I was calling in sick and I said, ‘Look, I quit.” And my parents flipped because they were still living in the middle East. So that was a defining moment where my folks were like, What are you doing? Why are you leaving that job? But you know what? I just always have it in me. Like when I jump, I survive.

Like when I jump, I survive and I swim. And it turned out that I went and was gripping on like three of the three or four other shows after that. And then the union came around and we got unionized. And then I was doing the gripping in the union. So yeah, that's definitely a defining moment. And my parents were not too happy about Look at me now.

Set Tacker Okay, that's awesome. That's awesome. And do you think you get more of your personality from your mom or your dad?

Andy I think it's a bit of both. Yeah. I mean, I grew up with my mom. I would see her as a single parent, so definitely her. But now because of a step dad, I do get some for him, but because I've now rediscovered my biological father about ten years ago, we've been really connecting and now I see a lot of me in him, which I'm actually going to go see him in a couple of weeks in Nicaragua.

So I'm excited about that. So it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of the Afro-Latino flavor, you know, a little bit of Central America, a little bit of South America mixed in there. It's nice.

Set Tacker So now when you get jobs, do you go in? Are you getting interviewed every time you get a job or sometimes you just getting hired and somebody says, hey, we're on this show and when you're getting a job, are you interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you?

Andy Yeah, it's a little bit of both, I think. You know, now with 20 years of a footprint here, I do have some loyal directors that like working with me that just kind of come into the blue to shoot their movies. Sometimes I do get interviewed, but I think the body, the body of work kind of speaks for itself.

I less and less get interviewed now. I would say just because a lot of these companies have hired me and I work with a lot of directors, but if they're new directors, then I have to jump in, you know, conversations with the networks. I got to jump in conversations with the director. I haven't landed them all, that's for sure.

I've been interviewed lots and haven't landed them, but that's okay. I think that's just the process of self-discovery and how you can better yourself in the interview process. And it's always good to to ask them questions of like, okay, what is the feel of the movie or what do you, what do you intend to to get out of it?

You know, a lot of the times I like to ask if it's a feature or not. A network you'd already sold. Going to a specific network is like, well, what is the end game for the movie? Because, you know, a lot of us want to work on movies, but you know, when they don't get finished, they don't get completed.

You can't put your work out there. And then it was some of your best work, you know.

Set Tacker So I always find like a good question. It's like, well, what's your end game for this? You know, where is the the viewership, where is what platforms are you looking to get into? And also as well as, you know, digging deep into the story.

So a little bit of both. I'd say. I haven't been interviewed in maybe two years, but I'm sure there'll be interviews committed. So digging deep into the story, like, what did you think when you read that first letter to any problem script? I know you shot those early videos and now that blew up into this most successful show in Canada.

Yeah, well, it's funny because I'm not Canadian, so I couldn't really understand the jokes at the time right. But I will say this delivery, the writing now that I get it, like the delivery, sorry, the acting, the writing, the delivery, and just the way we shot those first couple of episodes for you. YouTube. I just felt like they were so real.

Not that the show doesn't feel real anymore, but it's just so home grown. I think what they did was really like cultivate their home grown land. And I get that, you know, like, but it was funny, man. I'd be on set and I'm like thinking, what does that even mean? Like, I know, man, that's such a good sound.

But, you know, I was on set of the first Letterkenny shoot thinking, What does this mean? Well, they're, you know, the way they speak, I guess their their accents are very heavy. Right? So it's it's tough to understand some of those. And so was it pretty low budget at those first shoot? Yeah, we were pretty low.

Set Tacker What was Jared like? What was Jared Kesso the creator of Letterkenny, what was he like?

Andy I think we just showed up. I Mean he would just write things and we showed up to some form and we just, like, place them, you know, we'd find the truck, we'd place them on top of the truck. We find the pigs, we'd sit them down in front of the pigs. And our friend Terry Kim, Theo Kim was was directing them at the time.

I just thought they were they were great humor. Once they started getting the humour nice and nice.

Set Tacker And what do you have of all the things that you've done now of all? You've got so many pieces of work that you've done over 150 cards, I think is more like 180. Do you have a favorite one that kind of jumps to mind for you or a visual one, maybe just not your favorite, but something that comes up that you think is a great piece of work that comes up right now when you think about it?

Andy Yeah, absolutely. I think my own feature films, to be honest with you, you know, those are really home grown close to me, close to my business partners, you know, my first business partner, Road Woodland, and we've waited a long time to do a feature film so that would be one. And I would say the Whisper of Silence, which was developed by myself and my mom shot in El Salvador.

It was her story. So that was was really, really close to me and Brother I Cry, which is an indigenous feature talent to watch Telefilm funded, which again was very dear, close to me with my good friend and producer Jesse Anthony, an Indigenous director writer. So I kind of like working on social change, you know, things with the meaning.

Not, not that I'm not saying the network movies have those, but those sometimes are just a little bit more commercially. So, you know, it's kind of like talkie talkie. Here goes the hour. Yeah, everybody's happy in the end. So I'd say my own work. And then recently, my my short films that I've been kind of directing, I think those are very those are very me in a way of not having to speak out just to show you the images.

Yeah, it feels like a voice where some times I feel like we are looking at the world and everyone wants to talk about certain issues and politics that comes up for me. Every now and then. I get to feel like I get to speak a little bit through a piece of work if I'm involved in writing it or directing it.

Set Tacker Absolutely. So how do you handle situations? How do you handle situations when your work ends up on the cutting room floor? Is there a sense of disappointment?

Andy Again, I think it's a I think it's a an idea of like allowing in releasing. Right. Because, you know, the cutting room floor sometimes you're not even in the cutting room floor.

So I think, you know, I like to say I do one for them. I'll do one for me. Right. In order to keep it in order to keep the stability in the cutting room floor, it's like, do one for them, do one for me. So it's there's there's been times where absolutely you, you know, you just get left in the dust as a cinematographer and in the cutting room floor.

But I think that's why I create my own work, you know, nice. Do you have any story about a major learning lesson that you had earlier on in your career that helped you build a bit of a thicker skin? Because in film it's a very high pressure environment. Everybody can see the set and yeah, Tell me about something that went south when you were just early on.

I think earlier on I my first ten years at least in my career, yeah, I think it was mostly internal. Like I've always been a very chill cinematographer, producer on set, you know, handle very stressful situations very calmly. I think you need a good leader on set, whether you're the cinematographer, the producer. But I strongly feel that in my first like ten years, you know, it was very tough for me because I was comparing myself, comparing my work, you know, asking why I didn't land that job, why that person got that job.

And I was kind of questioning whether I was good enough. You know, which is kind of what artists do, I think. And it was really tough. It was really tough to to shed that. And, you know, I sort of had this epiphany of wake up and, you know, smell the coffee. And one day I just said, you know, I just gotta focus on myself, on the things that I want to do that my business partners want to do.

Like, you know, my mom has an idea here. I have ideas here. And I think once I allow that process of like focus within me, with inside me and just do what I wanted to do and it's okay that other people are doing better things. They're doing bigger budgets, are getting better cameras, whatever that is, to always kind of just hone it back home and be like, This is my work and I'm doing this because I love to do it and I do it for myself.

I think that was definitely another defining moment. And I woke up, Stop comparing myself, stop worrying about what other people were doing. And that's when my work started kind of being recognized. Yeah. Nice. Nice. My first day on a real set. It was a nonunion shoot, but it had about 70 people and somebody gave me the special effects atmosphere gun.

And I just went they rolled camera, I hit the gun and the entire you couldn't see anything in the monitors. The cast was coughing and then they took it away from me. And everybody saw, obviously, and that was my first day. And I was I just felt so terrible about that.

Set Tacker Do you have any story that you can tell?

Andy not directly. As a cinematographer, producer, I mean, I have a story when we were producing woodland that our director broke his ankle three days into filming, and then he never went to the hospital and he hobbled for 15 days on a broken ankle directing the movie, which we thought we had to. Yeah, I mean, three days in, your director breaks his ankle and you're like, Oh, we got to stop shooting.

But, but he definitely battled through. But I do have a story. When I joined the union and I was the only grouping I had, he was some really high pressure moment. I remember what job it was at the time, but I was pushing the buggy and we were running out of time and the focus puller couldn't get the focus.

And then they're looking at me because I'm going to slow. Then they're telling me to speed up. And then I did miss my mark and I flew the the dolly off the track and like the operator went flying and yeah. And I think for me that was a big learning curve because I was like, okay, regardless on who is yelling at you or who stunt you go faster.

Like you need to focus, right? And you know it. Like you said, it's a very high pressured environment. But in my own sets, even just a cinematic crew for a producer, you know, I like to keep it very chilled. I like to play music during set ups, you know, depending on the content. If it's not too heavy, you know, while people are setting up or at lunchtime or, you know, just make it a bit more of a friendly atmosphere, we don't have to be so, you know, stiff.

Yeah, there's a tense, there's a tension. But a lot of when I worked on bigger and bigger shows, I see that sometimes that goes away and people are able to make jokes about it when it's even when it's going wrong. As long as no one's getting hurt. It's like, this is a movie. It's not it's not brain surgery, I guess.

Set Tacker And regarding personalities in the departments of, say, cinematography, for example, do you think you have to be really tough to be a camera operator and move up? To be a cinematographer?

Andy You have to. Do some people not have that ability to handle when others are losing their temper? That's a good question. And I didn't come up through the camera department.

I actually came up through the great department. And I'll say this because one of them in one of my mentors said, Andy, why would you want to go serve some camera operator coffee for ten years and then you'll be promoted where you could go grip, learn about lighting, shaping, adding, directing, taking away, balancing, softening. And I was like, You know what? You're right. So I had joined the department, but through the people that I do hire my CS and second CS, people that have worked in the union or in the bigger shows, you know, it's it takes time. It takes time. I mean, you're going to be a trainee for a couple of years and then you'll probably be a second for a couple of years.

And then like that you might block out and get to first thing and then eventually to camp three, maybe 15 years down the line. And then if somehow, you know, the showrunner or the DP or somebody ends up, you know, knowing your work or that you just been on that show that long and you get promoted up. So for me was sort of like I had already started shooting and then I had joined as a grip, realized what the union was all about.

And then I was like, okay, I need to just face this out of my life. But there is times where, yeah, there's still some friends of mine that are, you know, still first thing and they've wanted to operate. And what I tell them, it's like if you just want to operate, go shoot your own projects. Go shoot your own projects because you know, it's, it's, it's tough.

Not everybody can just jump off a ten month show and go do any stuff. It's really tough to survive as an indie filmmaker, right, if you're not well rounded. So a lot of the guys, they just stay on these shows for years and years, right? And then they're like, Oh, I wanted to make that short film like five years ago.

But I've been, you know, Supernatural took, you know, three. I did six seasons of Supernatural and now it's like four years later and I never did it, you know. So I think it's good in terms of like stability, but sometimes that other side of the world is not very good if you're a technician trying to be creative. Yeah, to make your own short films is not easy to start getting people to join in and sign on.

Now, I was a little more used to it because when I was still a snowboarder, I thought that was my career. We were filming and we required a guy to drive the car. We required somebody to bring some lights. We had a camera operator and I would be performing the tricks. So there is already a team there. But for a lot of people it's difficult just to get a short film made because you're not used to getting ten people.

You have to be a salesman in a sense. Pretty much, absolutely. And you got to get people behind the story. I think that's that's a big one, too, right? Like, so depending on what how good your story is, I think people will rally. And again, it's good to work in the industry. I don't I'm not saying just go completely in the you know like I did it for a couple of years and I still kind of keep, you know, a foot in there.

I still know guys who are in the unions, still doing things, saying hi, you know, funny story. Actually, I got I remember a gaffer. He he does the bigger shows and I was gripping at the time and we kind of became friends and he was like, Yeah, man, I hope one day, you know, like you blow up and I get to gaffer you.

And then last year I did a mystery Hallmark movie and he was my gaffer. There you go. And I was like, Man, this is so cool. Like 15 years later, I can finally say, I got the budgets to hire these guys. And they're like, you know, they're bringing their trucks and yeah, even like, yeah, I mean, I remember a, a gentleman who I grew up with, I think it was 2012, and we did a show for four months and he was like, Dude, I think one day you're going to, you're going to make it.

And I'm like, If I do and you're going to be my key grip. And I hired him and those guys that Dina Boyd and Rory Sutherland, I finally got to hire those guys. Man, it's so cool to like, see them still in the game, but also like that, you can be like, Hey, come, let's do my show. And, you know, they knew me from when I was just grinding out and just little pop.

Set Tacker So would you say to people starting off like the number one thing, if you're trying to get a short film or a feature film made, number one thing you need to think about is the story?

Andy I think it's story, man. Yeah, I think it's story because which story you are going to gather people that connect with that story.

So, you know, whether it's an immigrant story, whether it's a personal story, whether it's a hardship story, or whether it's a story or fantasy, right? You find the click and you kind of click with that. I think for me personally, you know, my business partner has him in. I went to film school together and I think him and I really align with like my stories that I wanted his stories.

So I think it really just starts with those stories. And now once your build your team and you build, you know, people want to jump on your stuff. So, you know, after I made my first short, I didn't really tell anybody I was directing. I just sort of did it. And then people were like, Well, you're directing. I'm like, I want to work at everything you do, right?

And that's just because I had been building so much, right? So I think definitely the story is everything. Like the story is Guy the gather your crew's going to gather your, you know, your actors want to act in it or directors, and your story can also potentially get it funded because if the you know, you go through a platform or you find an investor and they love that story, they're probably going to put some money into it.

So, yeah, absolutely. Focus on the story first.

Set Tacker Well, thank you so much for agreeing to do the interview. And I'm just inspired by your career, your success it is great to meet you. As mentioned, I've known about you in town for a little while and I'm so glad that you were able to take the time to talk to me.

Sean MacGillis 12/4/23 Sean MacGillis 12/4/23

Whistler Film Festival ‘23

We co-hosted the Whistler Film Festival talent lunch with Warner Bros (Nov 29 - Dec 3). Here were our key takeaways.

**Co-hosted the talent lunch with Warner Brothers**

We co-sponsored the Whistler Film Festival talent lunch with Warner Bros (Nov 29 - Dec 3). Great to see many of you there.

Here were our key takeaways.

Consensus among broadcasters and streamers was that comedy TV series projects were underrepresented in the market at present. This view was expressed by Amazon and Paramount, who also noted that executing comedy is difficult for emerging filmmakers who need skilled comedy actors, whereas thriller and horror films can perform well with newer actors.

Also at the festival, there was a panel hosted by Jason Gold at Blumhouse and Amazon where they expressed that to initiate a development deal with a creative team for a new TV series, there were commonly five criteria that studios or production companies like Blumhouse consider before picking up a project:

Exceptional Creative Material (Script): Do I love the script and does it have a strong vision from the writers, such as addressing a current issue in the world or featuring an important personal connection to the writer(s)
Company Alignment: Is the creative material able to fit with the studios or production company goals? For example, Blumhouse leans into horror and thriller, whereas Apple leans towards epic stories and drama
Appeal to Other Buyers: Is there a buyer or other distributors who also believe the creative will fit with them? This is especially relevant for production companies that need additional funding and is less of a concern for Netflix, which can fully fund the project
Execution Ability of the Writer and Producer: Can the writers execute on the vision? Since it is easier to write a great 30-page pilot than it is to complete the entire series and manage production with all the logistical challenges, belief in the team's ability to execute is a major factor. If the team is new, or has limited credits then they should know their first season like the back of their hand, including every cliffhanger, character arc, and the season finale.
Profitability: Is there commercial appeal to the package, either with a commercial concept in a hot segment of the market or another highly profitable element such as a major actor attached?

If a project can meet all 5/5 of the above criteria, then there is a good chance that buyers or production companies will execute a development deal.

Sean MacGillis 11/28/23 Sean MacGillis 11/28/23

Ante Dekovic

Ante Dekovic is an Emmy-winning VFX supervisor, born in Croatia. Today we are sitting down with him to get his behind-the-scenes insights on how great movies are made. We will discuss how his career started as a kid, making skate videos, and progressed all the way to working with Hollywood's biggest TV shows like Star Trek, True Detective, and Shadow and Bone. This interview was brought to you by Set Tracker, a mobile app designed by filmmakers for use on high-level film and TV shows. Our mission at Set Tracker is to support the film industry and shine a light on talented people who work behind the scenes.

Go to Podcast @ Spotify

This interview was brought to you by Set Tracker, a mobile app designed by filmmakers for use on high-level film and TV shows. Our mission at Set Tracker is to support the film industry and shine a light on talented people who work behind the scenes.

Transcript below.

KYLE: "Thank you, Ante, for joining me. Did you imagine your career would get you to this place when you started? Now that you are one of the top VFX supervisors?"

ANTE: No, not at all. I mean, thinking back, like when I first started, it was in skateboarding. I started doing some skate videos with my buddies. And then I really got a passion for editing and a little bit of directing. So I was more going in that direction. And then I was working for a company, and I got introduced randomly to visual effects, and I kind of fell in love right away. Because you can do so many cool things. It's like being a magician in a way that you can do so much cool stuff with it. Then when I first started visual effects, I had no idea what it is, and now, 20 plus years later, here we are. It's been a great run.

KYLE: "Your mother was a lawyer, and dad worked in media. So when other kids were getting toy trucks, you were getting a computer and a camcorder?"

ANTE: That’s right. My dad didn't just provide the tools. He also would tell me how to do things better rather than just being like, “Oh, this is great. You did a great job.” I feel like he pushed me further in my career to always not get mad at criticism but just take it in a way to be like, okay, I can push myself too. And that is what we all want to do: deliver a great project.

KYLE: "How do you encourage the people that work with you when you're collaborating to create a certain effect or a certain scene? And what are the techniques that you do to talk about the vision and communicate that to all the different artists?”

ANTE: Well, I think it starts talking to the showrunners. It starts by talking to the directors and to the writers and to everybody involved. As a VFX supervisor, you're in the middle, so you have to make the connection between the showrunners and the directors and the artists. You’re like the middleman who tries to communicate both ways. Obviously, when you have a great team like Eric Heisserer (writer of Arrival) and they give you creative freedom, it's the best because you can talk to them and pitch them ideas on what you think would be cool. And the more you can pitch them, the more invested you get, the better it becomes. In doing so, you become a big part of it, rather than just like pushing buttons, “Oh, he wants it blue or green or whatever.” I think that's the biggest motivation.

KYLE: "Are there any tips that you have on how you could pitch any of the things that you pitch, whether it's a creature concept or a stunts proposal? Can you walk us through that process about how you formulate a pitch to a showrunner?"

ANTE: I guess it starts with building a connection with the showrunner. Luckily, with Eric and Daegon (Showrunners from Shadow and Bone), I hit it off right away. Like we were all on the same page, which is not always the case. I mean, on Star Trek, we had the same luck with Alex Kurtzman. But I worked on other shows where the showrunners have such a unique idea and they kind of sheltered it, which makes things a little bit harder. But I would say it starts with understanding what the showrunner wants and figuring out what direction they want to go. And at the beginning, it is always a little bit of hit and miss, and you kind of feel it out. You start slowly, respectfully, with a few ideas. I mean, I remember at the beginning of Shadow and Bone, before I even met Eric and Lee and just kind of briefly met Daegon, I would email them and it would be, “Hey, I would like to think we could do it this way. However, I don't want to say something that might not be in our universe, and I don't want to do anything wrong because it's Season Two, and I just joined.” And then they would reply, and we got the feel for it. So I like to get to know people. Some other people just go and pitch and then it works out or it doesn’t. But I like to go slowly, and then once we figure it out, it's just back and forth, and you get more creative. Sometimes I pitched some ideas that were too wild, and they're like, “Yeah, we don't like it” or they don't say it, “We don't like it.” Instead, they would say, “I think it should be this way.” And then you just also have to understand when you pitch it once, maybe pitch it twice, but then after that, you kind of let it go because it's their vision, it's their show. So you accept what it is. And I think that's the key to success is being respectful and also try to get your ideas out but also understand what direction they need to go.

KYLE: "So maybe if I'm accurately reviewing what you said, you start by trying to get a little bit of a personal feel for the person before you're pitching, and then you go a little bit slower with ideas and really ask them for feedback? You ask what they're looking for, then when you start pitching, usually you're building a relationship, and it becomes easier?"

ANTE: Absolutely. Yeah. That's how it goes. I mean, it's all working with people. It's all people and personalities and whatnot. So I think that's true for any department. Being a people person, right? So understanding how people work.

KYLE: "Ante, you own a skateboard company. And do you continue to get out on your skateboard as much you can?"

ANTE: I've been skating since I'm 14, so that would make it like over 25 years of skateboarding. I'm still doing it actively as much as I can, even if it gets harder on the body. But, you know, when I grew up, there was a skate shop in Germany and just loved it. I worked part-time when I was a kid at the skate shop, and it was the place to go. And we would always meet there and then do our skate session. So after when they closed, there was a big gap for a while. And, you know, me and my buddy, we want to give it back to the community, give it back to skateboarding. And, you're not going to get rich with skateboarding these days, especially if you have a skate shop. But, it's nice to have a store where kids can hang out, watch a skate video, and get the latest news and whatnot. And that's why we decided to do it.

KYLE: "Yeah, that's something that I think is amazing of you, that you have a connection to your past and your identity as a skater and I know that was something that we connected on."

KYLE: "I mentioned before how film requires so many people. And do you have any trial and error experiences where you tried to implement a creative solution and something didn't work out and you have to change on the fly on-set perhaps? Or is there any a situation where something that you guys went for ended up on the cutting room floor, and it was kind of disappointing?"

ANTE: Happens all the time. Both things like that are a lot of times where, you know, like I mean, no matter how good you prep things, there's always something, right? There's always something on the day. It doesn't necessarily have to be visual effects. It could be any other department that needs our help that, you know, last minute, they're like, “Hey, special effects couldn't figure it out. Can you guys do it?” Or Look, we tried to have one wire, but it ended up being two or three wires. Can you guys paint them out? So I feel like that's a daily thing. And you can't always plan exactly how it will be on set. So you have to be flexible to a certain degree; obviously, we also have to be budget-conscious so you can't just be like, “we’ll do anything.” But you have a feel for helping, and you build those relationships with other departments so you know they hook you up, you hook them up. And as far as like ideas, I mean, it happens all the time. Like you have some great shot and then you want you really want to bring it in. Like I had it on Star Trek several times where we were like, “Oh, man, we want to bring the shot in, and it's going to be so cool and epic.” And then, you know, it's like they have to cut something or that they're like, “Look, we can't afford that shot it is too expensive.” So then you have to get rid of it. And I feel you try your best and sometimes there's things that work out and then sometimes they don't work out and that's how it is.

KYLE: "Do you think you have a thick skin? Do the people you work with have a thick skin? I just have a funny story from when I first started in film, my first day on a real set, I had just got out of film school and they gave me one of the smoke guns and I went crazy on the smoke gun and the shot was completely wiped out. Everybody was coughing on set. The actors, you could not even see them through the camera. And somebody took the gun away from me and I was so embarrassed. But it was a really lighthearted story. Is there any story like that comes to mind?"

ANTE: Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, the longer you do it, the better you can handle things. I used to get angry and take things personally all the time. And then, I get better, like Season Two of Sleepy Hollow. My first day being back on that set. And I remember, we were supposed to shoot some clean plates, and it was already like 3 a.m., and everybody wanted to go home, right? So the First Assistant Director was like that's a wrap. And I'm saying “wait we need that clean plate.” And they are tired and upset because that was my first day on set. And they're like, who is this guy? And I was terrified. I was so devastated. I'm like, Oh my God, they're going to hate me. But luckily, you learn that it's part of film, and you know, after a while, there's not much that can stress me out or get me out of balance.

KYLE: "You build that skin in high-pressure work environments, whether it's film or other jobs. But I think film is definitely a high-pressure work environment because everybody is watching the set. Everybody can see what's happening. So regarding personalities in VFX, do you think that there are individuals who don't move up because they don't have that kind of grit and toughness? They end up not being able to progress and become higher in the food chain on the VFX team."

ANTE: I think it's the personality thing for sure because if you think about it, you know, like as a VFX artist, you work in a room full of other artists, right? You are all in the same world. And I experienced that when I left being on the vendor’s side and moved onto being a supervisor, I feel like some supervisors don't move up because it can also get really stressful. You know, when you are on set things happen all of a sudden. First, you wait, you wait, you wait, and then VFX is up, and then something goes wrong, and you have to come with a solution in a few seconds. It might cost you a lot of money later in post, and then you have to stand behind it, and later on, if that doesn't work. And then you have to ask the studio for more money, and it gets tricky. So I feel like the stress level, it's different on set. It's a different stress level. You wait and then do something and then wait and then do something and have to come up with those solutions and sell the ideas to people. You have to be able to talk to the DP and say, “Hey, I need this.” As you said, not every artist can just move up and be a VFX supervisor or set supervisor.

KYLE: "And the VFX vendors you mentioned just now. What is it like in the landscape of the VFX vendors? Are there companies that are just on top, and they've been that way for ten years?"

ANTE: Yeah, I mean, after COVID, I guess what happened is like there was a bigger demand for visual effects, so all of a sudden there was way, way too many VFX companies with not necessarily the best artists just because all of a sudden everybody was in demand. So, and then that kind of like leveled out during the strike. And even after that. So I remember like, you know, while on Star Trek during COVID, we could get the best vendors for a cheaper rate versus after COVID, the prices went 30 - 40% up. Right? So, yeah, it's like there's a lot of visual effects companies, and I think also with the technology being easier. Anybody can do stuff on your iPhone these days, right? So I feel like people have more access to it, but then also it gets a little bit where the quality suffers, in my opinion. Right? You have to know which vendor you want to use, and that's where you build the relationships over the years. You build for the love of working with these guys. And you get to know them.

KYLE: "I guess I should not ask you if you've seen a major movie that had some bad visual effects? That's probably not politically correct?”

ANTE “Yeah, I don't know… I mean, obviously there is. And but to be fair, it's not always bad companies working on these a lot of times has to do with time and money. Right? I'm I mean look, I delivered some visual effects that I wasn't 100% happy with because we just run out of time or money in the past. So I understand that. Obviously, you know, obviously when you watch it, especially the visual effects artists, you tend to judge it a little bit harsher than the rest of the world. But then, you know, like then I like to look at the credits and see who did it. And, then I'm like, okay, if it's somebody I know, they’re actually really good at it and must be something else.

KYLE “Are you competitive with the other VFX supervisors out there? Does anyone motivate you a lot?

ANTE “ I don't think I'm competitive. If anything I like to see people that I'm friends get better than me, you know, in a sense we grew up working together. Like, there's so much work out there that I'm never like, oh my God, why did you get the job? I'm happy with the show I got. Sometimes I got that show because somebody else bailed on a show. And I'm like, Good for me, right? And then it works. It works the other way around. I'm not that competitive. I'm not. But when it comes to the Emmys and awards, obviously you're like, why didn't they get it? Why did I get the Emmy? Why did those guys not get the Emmy? You know, or why did they get nominated? But it's just like a lot of things. It's popularity and politics. So it's okay.

KYLE “And when you're looking over the hdge of what's coming next for you, is there any anything big that you're thinking about that you have for your own goals?

ANTE “I want to move up to do features a little bit because I've been doing TV for so long now and you know, like with all the Emmy nominations and, and the Emmy win. I feel like I want to I want to progress and get to somewhere else. I mean, people are always like, well, don't you want to do something big as a mandalorian ? I'm like, Yeah, but it's also that I've done big shows and I feel like it gets to a point where things get a little bit like, repetitive. So that's why I kind of want to like go to do features for a bit just because it's different pace. And then and then who knows, maybe I can't go go back to TV and big show comes up and I might do that.

KYLE Well, thank you. And thanks for taking the time to do this interview. It was fantastic.

Sean MacGillis 9/22/23 Sean MacGillis 9/22/23

Toronto International Film Festival ‘23

We sponsored Content Canada 2023 alongside Lionsgate, Rogers, Blue Ant, and others. Special thanks to Ferne Cohen and Joel Fecht for organizing a special event.

Here were our key takeaways.

We sponsored Content Canada 2023 alongside Lionsgate, Rogers, Blue Ant, and others. Special thanks to Ferne Cohen and Joel Fecht for organizing a special event.

It was a unique TIFF experience given it was hosted in the throes of the writers and actors strikes. The recent insights gathered from the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) shed light on several emerging trends and shifts within the industry that are poised to influence the landscape:

Evolution of Streaming Services

Future industry trends indicate a significant rise in ad-supported streaming (AVOD) from major providers like Amazon, Netflix, and Hulu. This growth is attributed to the escalating costs associated with premium subscriptions, which are encouraging a shift towards ad-supported models.

Changes in Script Sales

There has been a noticeable decline in spec script sales in 2022/2023 as studios and agencies pivot towards reworking existing Intellectual Property (IP) rather than investing in new scripts.

Shifting Focus of Independent Production Houses

Independent production companies like Neon and A24, traditionally recognized for their dramatic content, are expressing interest in seeking franchisable IP, particularly in the realm of action-based content with slightly higher budgets. This shift signifies a notable change in their strategic content direction.

Updates in Canadian Content Guidelines

Revisions in Canadian content guidelines have led major streaming platforms such as Netflix and Paramount to increase budgets for Canadian divisions, primarily to bolster domestic programming in compliance with the new regulations.

Insights on Set Tracker

Following the recent strike, it has become evident that productions are increasingly emphasizing maximum efficiency due to tighter budget constraints. Security has become a paramount concern for our clients, prompting the integration of new features like digital document watermarking. Additionally, valuable feedback on the app interface has been received. Experienced producers and filmmakers appreciate how our mobile app mirrors the functionality of a call sheet, emphasizing the prioritization of essential information such as key contacts, weather and location maps.