Brandon Christensen
Dive into horror with Director, Brandon Christensen with 5 feature film director credits in horror to-date.
Brandon takes you behind the scenes exploring the nuances of writing and directing successful horror films. Check out his most recent movie, ‘The Puppetman’ on AMC’s Shudder.
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Transcript below.
Host: Kyle McCachen (“KM”)
Today on the behind the scenes interview series, we have writer director producer Brandon Christensen (“BC”). He's completed five feature films and sold them internationally and has another film coming out this year. For one week, his film Z, was ahead of Marvel's Avengers in the box office in Mexico. Brandon is a specialist in horror films and the majority of his films can be seen on AMC's streaming service Shudder.
00;00;22;22 - 00;00;24;28
KM
So thanks for being here today.
00;00;24;29 - 00;00;26;26
Guest: Brandon Christensen (“BC”)
No problem.
00;00;26;29 - 00;00;37;03
KM
So if you were going to reflect on your journey in the film industry, having made five four feature films, do you consider yourself lucky?
00;00;37;05 - 00;00;59;15
BC
Oh, definitely. I mean, I think a part of it is not just luck, but it's also just the willingness to take risks, you know, and just the situation with making films and stuff like that. Everything is always about risk taking, you know? Like, I think that now that we live in a time where everybody has the technology and things like that, there is not as many hurdles as there was, you know, 20, 30 years ago.
00;00;59;18 - 00;01;19;22
BC
So it really just becomes like an inner battle that you have to like. Can you overcome the fear of failure, all of these things, and just get something out there. I mean, any anytime you're doing any sort of artistic thing, painting, music, drawing, anything like that, you're putting yourself out there. And so there's that fear of failure, fear of like looking dumb, whatever it is. So I do think that a lot of it is just having the willingness to put yourself out there, which is a huge part of it. So, yeah, I mean, it's totally lucky if you can if you can do it and create a career out of it and sort of sustain yourself, I think that's where the luck is. Because I know a lot of talented people that have made stuff and they've kind of gotten stuck on that first film or stuck in post-production on the first movie and it's never really gone to the next level. And while I'm still, you know, very much an independent filmmaker, I've sort of created a sustainable business model that allows me to have some flexibility and not be constantly waiting for money and things like that. Like I've got sort of a good pool of resources that I can go to, and it's been nice to just sort of keep the momentum rolling because if you can get into a position where you're constantly waiting for money coming. But it's tough. So, I mean, if you're trying to make expensive features like $1,000,000, $2 million, that money, that's a lot of money. You know, it's hard to get someone to sacrifice that because, you know, the reality is most movies don't make money, right? So if you're.
00;02;31;02 - 00;02;32;29
KM
Well, break even or lose.
00;02;32;29 - 00;02;44;23
BC
Totally. So it's it's you know, it's a tough business model to present to someone that's you're like asking for money short of having just like a billionaire whale that you can, go to.
00;02;44;25 - 00;03;01;28
KM
And how many of us I feel like a lot of us filmmakers do know, like these whales and stuff. But you're never moving forward, I'm not sure if you've had success with them. I have a couple of guys who I know who are high net worth. They're interested in my films and you chat about it, but that also if they're not in the industry, it also seems to be maybe like a fool's errand. Do you think that's true?
00;03;03;05 - 00;03;22;23
BC
Yeah, I think it is a fool's errand. The entire industry is insane. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, you know, if most of these projects lose money or barely recoup, it's it's not really a great investment vehicle. You have to find someone that doesn't care about the business side. You know, if they are that kind of rich, high net worth person. But they also just care about supporting people that are starting out or something like that, you know? And I think that I think I wish that the industry had more of that in it. And like the actors and things like that, like there's there is this gatekeeping with these, you know, you have you'll have actors that are talking about, oh, the indie scene is dying, but it's like we'll go be in an indie, You know, you could launch someone's career tomorrow if you just signed on for some cheap 20 day shoot or 15 day shoot and just sort of helped, you know, helped grow these filmmakers. But they don't do that. I think if you're an actor who wants to act, I think indies are a great place to do it because, you know, they're not all great, but it allows you to be on camera and try things a lot, you know?
00;04;03;28 - 00;04;09;17
KM
What do you think is so special about horror and Thriller in the indie space? Because that's where you focus.
00;04;09;20 - 00;04;32;09
BC
I think it's just a great medium for directors to just sort of try things because there's no there's a market appeal for horror that most genres don't have because comedy is very tough because humor doesn't translate across, you know, boundaries. So like you go to Japan, you go to you go to Germany. An American joke doesn't land the way it does there.
00;04;32;09 - 00;04;52;28
BC
So there's kind of this there's this there's just sort of a disconnect there. So the market, unless you've got like a Seth Rogen or something like that, leading your film that has that international appeal, it's very kind of focused on North America. So with horror, the idea is. King So it's like if you've got a cool jump scare or something like that, like that's going to translate everywhere.
00;04;52;28 - 00;05;10;09
BC
You know, it's just people in Latin America are scared of the same thing as people in China, you know? So it's like it's it's more sustainable because you open up the market to the film more than you would with the comedy or a drama. I think action films, they do the same thing, but you need more money to shoot action.
00;05;10;09 - 00;05;11;21
BC
So it's a little bit tougher to get into.
00;05;11;24 - 00;05;24;14
KM
Yeah, I want to get back to that about like marketing and why you just decided from a business point of view and also your career in your business. But you mentioned jump scares. How do you give me three tips on how to make a jump scare work?
00;05;24;17 - 00;05;50;04
BC
Three tips? I think it's all it's kind of like a joke. Jump scares are basically jokes. They're the same thing. You have a setup and you have a punch line. And so it's just all about how you do that. I mean, like even though Quentin Tarantino doesn't do jump scares or horror or anything like that, you'll watch something like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where Brad Pitt goes to the ranch and he's just pulling the strings of tension so long that you're just so uncomfortable watching it.
00;05;50;07 - 00;06;09;17
BC
There isn't a jump scare payoff, but it has that same sort of anxiety building feeling when he's just slowly going through this ranch and you have the sound design and every creak and you just like dreading what's going to happen because, you know, you're bringing like the history of this ranch and these people. And who are these, you know, these cultists are that, you know, that something can go wrong because he's not a real character.
00;06;09;17 - 00;06;27;22
BC
So, you know, is he in danger? I don't know. But there's that unknown that you kind of tap into, but you just sort of pull that string as long as you can before it snaps. And then if you, you know, and then the other side of that is you can pull it as long as you want. And then the decision on when the jump scare lands is up to you.
00;06;27;23 - 00;06;42;05
BC
You know, you can be like, Oh, I'm going to fake it or I'm going to keep pulling it and make them even worse. And then there's nothing at all. And it leaves them kind of like wanting more. And then you hit them like it's all about a falls. Yeah, it's all kind of timing and just sort of how you do it.
00;06;42;05 - 00;07;06;20
BC
I mean, the biggest one that I've I've probably had was in Z with the kid falling off and it's kind of like, so there's a scene where the main kid Josh is, he's become kind of an outcast and his friend's parents don't want him around anymore. So he, he gets suspended and King Kong and Tracy brings him to see him again to just sort of force him back into the situation and find out why they're not talking anymore.
00;07;06;22 - 00;07;24;28
BC
And Josh goes, when he's there, he's like, is, you know, is I think Daniel, is he upstairs? And they're like, yeah, he's upstairs. And you can see the hesitancy on the mother that she doesn't want him to go up and play because she doesn't trust this kid. So she goes off. That hesitancy kind of goes away as their conversation gets more intense.
00;07;25;01 - 00;07;43;01
BC
And then as the conversation kind of comes to a almost a close, the moment happens where the kid gets thrown off the stairs upstairs and just sort of slams through the frame. And, you know, for the audience, you have the setup and you know that she's she's scared of him going up there because what happens is what she's worried is going to happen.
00;07;43;03 - 00;08;00;28
BC
But the conversation goes so serious and everything that we're focused, we've totally forgotten about it and so is the mom. So we're kind of like in the mom's headspace, just like narrowing in the focus of the scene. And then right when she's like at her most comfortable and they've kind of resolved their issue, the thing that she forgot about happens behind her and it's just like the worst thing in the world.
00;08;00;28 - 00;08;08;14
BC
So it's just about taking, you know, you set it up, you kind of play with the audience for a sec, and then you go, Oh, remember this? We did that, you know, and then you hit them.
00;08;08;14 - 00;08;26;09
KM
And then he's pretty. The kid. Yeah. Get hurt badly. Yeah. So when you're coming up with that, I know you're funny. So do you think those things are funny? Because I was thinking that's one of your strengths that you have in the thrillers from I've seen that. I've seen from that gang of people that we've all worked with.
00;08;26;11 - 00;08;37;26
KM
One of the things that I've always noticed is that you get laughs in some of your scripts, where or not, in some of your screenings, where some of the other filmmakers that I know I find can't land jokes as.
00;08;37;29 - 00;08;53;26
BC
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that there's some absurdity to it that when you react like that, you kind of check yourself and you're like, Holy crap, Like this thing just made me jump. And that's funny. And if you're in a theater, there's almost like a communal aspect of that where everyone's like, Oh, you jump to and it lighten the mood and it is really fun.
00;08;53;29 - 00;09;16;06
BC
But, you know, I think Jordan Peele has talked about I think he's done sort of the best job with like get out where he has genuinely scary stuff, but then genuinely hilarious stuff because he's got like a great comedy background. So it's I think that they're just such you if you can weave them together and you can make the audience like feel this high and then this low immediately, it just creates kind of a rollercoaster effect for them.
00;09;16;06 - 00;09;31;23
BC
So they're kind of like they don't know where they're going to be at any one point. They're just a scene happens and it's like, is this going to be scary or is it going to be funny? Or could it be both? You know, I think the final scene when, you know, everybody's sort of dead and the police lights pull up at the very end of the movie.
00;09;31;29 - 00;09;45;29
BC
The original ending was cops, and it was going to be like, oh, the black violence thing. And he gets arrested. It's a really dark ending, but I believe it was a studio note to make it his friend. And so now you watch that and you're just dreading that like, Oh my God, he's going to be like, He's innocent.
00;09;45;29 - 00;10;15;09
BC
But we know what happened. But the cops won't. But then his friend comes out and he says, Oh, on his DSA, and then you just like, Oh, it's such a feel good moment. And it it could have been a completely different feeling. But you go into those credits and you just love it because it's so fun. Yeah, you're not totally So I think I think there's just such a, you know, you look at the, the theater masks and it's comedy and drama and there's just so there's so interlinked because I think that just those two emotions, the highs and the lows, they just play together so well.
00;10;15;09 - 00;10;19;29
BC
So if you can tap into that, it doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty, it's pretty good.
00;10;19;29 - 00;10;24;06
KM
Okay, so list off three tips for making a jump scare work.
00;10;24;09 - 00;10;43;10
BC
Have a set up you know, try and know your punch line ahead of it. It's not just like an improv joke. It has to have a structure. So you want to have a setup to what's going to happen. So you want to have whatever story device that's going to happen that's going to resolve itself in that same scene or later, whatever the payoff is.
00;10;43;12 - 00;11;02;02
BC
And really just like Stretch the tension as long as you can, you know, try and distance yourself from that set up or try and, you know, if it's a someone walking through a scary house, just real every make it slower than slow, you know, you just want to milk every bit of tension that you can. And then really it's just about timing.
00;11;02;02 - 00;11;17;02
BC
And a lot of that is just gut instinct. But when you do hit that, make sure that it hits hard and it all hits in unison. So like the sound, if you're going to have a jump scare like Stinger, make sure that's hitting on frame accurate like because if you get sort of a double stutter, it'll ruin the whole thing.
00;11;17;02 - 00;11;36;06
BC
So yeah. So if you're like in the mix and you're looking at it, just make sure that the cut and the audio and the music, whatever all the elements that are happening, whatever it is, just make sure that they're landing for you. I think the hardest part about it is, you know, it's coming. It's hard to sort of step back and see it objectively.
00;11;36;09 - 00;11;53;29
BC
So if you can sit and, you know, just I'm fairly good at it now where I'm able to watch something and kind of forget everything around it and just sort of see it in a vacuum, but just sort of trying to forget what you know, because it is really hard. I mean, at this level, we don't have test audiences and stuff like that.
00;11;53;29 - 00;12;09;03
BC
We just can't afford it. So it is just very much, you know, your instincts and hoping it works. And so it's just focusing and just making sure that those moments because it's like a good joke if you if you fumble, if you fumble on the payoff and the the the plan.
00;12;09;05 - 00;12;10;14
KM
Or even the delivery.
00;12;10;15 - 00;12;26;11
BC
Totally, it ruins it. So it's it's it's just like the same as a joke. You just have to make sure you nail those beats and rehearse it and play with it and practice it. And then, you know, just hope it works because even sometimes they don't. Even if you get it right. There's a great book by Walter Merge called In the Blink of an Eye.
00;12;26;11 - 00;12;45;05
BC
It's about editing and like how they, like, cut like the English patient and stuff like that. It's really short book, but it's really great because he he just he's, he puts it in such a eloquent way of how like he'll watch the same edit over and over so he'll, he'll watch the scene and he'll watch the edit and he'll be like, okay, is that right?
00;12;45;05 - 00;13;11;14
BC
And then he'll watch it again and, you know, hit the button when he thinks the edit should be. And he does it over and over and over until every time he hits that button, the edit is exactly on the frame that it should be. So it's just this repetition. I mean, you know, you hear about comedians going to do stand up and they make everybody put their phones in those bags that they can't access and film and, you know, spoil anything, because a lot of the time, unless they're spending like an entire year just practicing and workshopping.
00;13;11;14 - 00;13;28;09
BC
Right. And so they get to the point finally, when they do, they're set for Netflix, whatever it is. And now they've got it honed in and they've they know the reactions, they know all the beats and things like that. It's very similar to like a film screening. Like the first time I watch one of my movies, certain things land and certain things don't.
00;13;28;09 - 00;13;48;21
BC
And it's kind of disappointing at first, but eventually you learn what is working and you kind of lean into it and, you know, if this is, it just becomes part of the experience. You just know because the audiences react very similarly because it is it's not like a comedy set where if you go to one place and you do another, your timing's off a little bit like, this is a movie so that the timing is the same the whole time.
00;13;48;23 - 00;14;00;17
BC
But yeah, it's kind of fun because you know, like I'm like, oh, 28 minutes, there's a scare that's going to happen. I know what's going to get an audience reaction, so I'm going to pull out my phone and film it. And you have like a cool clip of everyone going like, Oh, and, and that's cool.
00;14;00;18 - 00;14;22;09
KM
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Like, audience screenings is something you can't afford at this level. And another thing I just noticed is good actors, people who are, well, really good, well known actors, obviously they're what make our films. Yeah. And we're always trying to get the best actors we can with limited budget. How do you how do you go about that?
00;14;22;11 - 00;14;40;09
BC
That's tough. I mean, a lot of it is because now that I've done multiple, I've got circles of people that I can talk to, you know, like when I did Super Host, that was such a that was my first, like truly soup. I mean, that's not true. It was, but it was a very low budget film and it has such small cast that I just cast it with friends and friends of friends.
00;14;40;09 - 00;14;54;25
BC
And by that point, since I'd already done two, I had sort of a circle of trust built up where I could ask, you know, like I would ask someone, Oh, you know, Oscar Chow, you know, what's he like? How is he to work with him and say, Oh, he's great, he's amazing. And so you you, you use that information.
00;14;55;01 - 00;15;16;29
BC
And I mean, ultimately, actors there's so many talented actors, right? Like, you can get a great performance from a lot of people. But to me, the most important thing is just having fun on set, you know, like having people that can do the work and do it well, but also enjoy their time, enjoy your company because, you know, I like to run a looser said like I get you know, it's just you get Red Bull in me and it's just like chaos.
00;15;16;29 - 00;15;40;09
BC
So you need to you need to find people that are around you that can kind of like not not push away that energy. Because if you can if it gets very collaborative and very fun and it's just like, you know, movies are a marathon, they're just such a slog. So if you can find those people that you can surround yourself with that have a similar energy and they're there for the same reason, it just makes the experience so much more fun.
00;15;40;09 - 00;15;45;15
BC
And, you know, when you when you walk away from that set, you've got like lifelong friends, which is, you know, so awesome.
00;15;45;15 - 00;16;09;00
KM
So yeah, it's wild how much goes into just how much time is spent during a movie production. That is, I guess it's 24 hours a day. It feels like for a few months. Totally. And then the release and the pressure. Yeah. You know, even the actors, they all feel pressure. Everyone wants it to be received well, and you don't exactly know how well it'll be received, Right?
00;16;09;02 - 00;16;20;13
KM
It's pretty wild. So speaking of wild experiences on set, tell me about that movie set in the desert where you guys ended up with an RV coated in blood.
00;16;20;15 - 00;16;36;08
BC
Yeah. So it stands as Sands Red. That was the first time I ever got to work on a movie. Colin Minahan and Stuart Ortiz, They were trying to get this film done and it took place in the desert and I was, I was just like, Well, I lived in Las Vegas at the time, so I was like, Dude, the desert everywhere.
00;16;36;09 - 00;16;51;15
BC
You should come here and do it. And so I kind of lobbied them to come out and we scouted some locations and I kind of made it impossible for them to say no. And that was just like the first risk take that I took in the in the business. You know, like I was doing, I was comfortably making commercials, but I always wanted to get into films.
00;16;51;15 - 00;17;16;26
BC
So and I had this sort of glimmer of an opportunity. I was just like, Screw it. And I dropped everything. And I just was like, Let's do this. And I wanted that experience. But yeah, they came out and super small budget, you know, is like $700,000. So it was we just didn't have any, anything nice or anything. And you're working in the desert, which is so vast that scouting it and everything was just such a nightmare.
00;17;16;26 - 00;17;35;23
BC
So we ended up getting this RV that we rented and it just sort of became our base camp and we could, you know, we could do makeup in there. We could we could just sort of get out of the cold because, you know, we're in the Vegas desert. It's still that cold. But yeah, just there was one night that we shot and it was a death scene and there's zombie and blood everywhere.
00;17;35;23 - 00;17;59;20
BC
And it was so cold that the actor Merwin, after the scene, he was wearing basically a tank top because it takes place in the summer and it was freezing. And so he gets covered in blood and he just sprints to the RV and just dripping everywhere and just covering like it's like a dog coming in from the snow and he's just shaking and blood's going everywhere and for the rest of the shoot because that was like week one, maybe, maybe end of week one.
00;17;59;22 - 00;18;05;20
BC
We just had this this RV just covered in blood for the entire shoot. Is so gross.
00;18;05;23 - 00;18;12;21
KM
I remember it because I came in the second week and I was everyone was like, Watch out, don't go in there. I stepped in one time. I was like, Holy shit.
00;18;12;23 - 00;18;14;20
BC
So it was like a crime scene. And it's all.
00;18;14;20 - 00;18;17;23
KM
It was like, Did you guys have to pay a couple thousand dollars?
00;18;17;23 - 00;18;29;22
BC
We we took it to a detailing place and they cleaned and it was totally fine. Yeah, it was like 500 bucks, but. Oh, so it all worth it because the guy. Yeah, that was it was so gross. It was just like a crime scene.
00;18;29;22 - 00;18;54;00
KM
And that shoot as well. That was one of those indie shoots that we were talking about before we started rolling cameras today about how you guys are just like, Let's just make this because I remember they didn't have all the money when they started. Yeah, and they started filming that classic like scenario totally, which is challenging. Yeah. And I remember Stu, I was acting in one of the scenes and Stu was on the phone with I don't know who saying that they were going to give another 30 grand.
00;18;54;03 - 00;18;59;27
KM
Okay. And he was I was like, You guys started shooting this movie without your money? Yeah.
00;18;59;29 - 00;19;22;27
BC
Yeah, that was funny because they were financing it and just things balloon, you know, as they do. So you think that you need this much and you need a little bit more so and I didn't have any of those. I didn't have anybody at that time to, like, ask for money. So, yeah, it was kind of just, you know, I was so busy just running the next day, like scouting advance, you know, taking a drone out to the desert and flying around and coming back and be like, What about this spot?
00;19;22;29 - 00;19;41;26
BC
And then, okay, Because I mean, another thing is we went to BLM, the Bureau of Land Management, ahead of time because all the deserts owned by the Bureau of Land Management and we we put out permit requests for everything and we had this very organized thing. And then we went to Wendover to shoot the opening of or the sort of the finale of the film.
00;19;41;28 - 00;19;59;22
BC
And then the next week we were starting kind of principle, but over that weekend it was like Friday evening, all the permits were rejected. And so we were like about Monday we started in earnest and we had no permits. So we're just like, screw it. We're just we just stole every location except for Valley of Fire. They, they let us shoot there.
00;19;59;23 - 00;20;25;16
KM
That was a beautiful spot. I remember being there. I also remember Collin just did not care about his car at first. They they tried to get permission to use the car. Of course, said no, and then they use it anyway. And then because he let me drive the car for that, I was really excited to be driving, but he was willing to let his car get destroyed in a sense, when a zombie was attacking it, he was like, You have to make this look real.
00;20;25;16 - 00;20;44;15
KM
It's getting scratched is a nice Porsche. And then when I was pulling off into this, off this road onto the dirt, he was like, You've got to pull off more. And I'm like, Your car is bouncing along this or This is a Porsche. And he's like, I don't care. And I remember thinking like, Wow, that's what it takes, I guess, to make anybody really care.
00;20;44;21 - 00;20;45;27
KM
And Collin definitely cares.
00;20;46;02 - 00;21;07;24
BC
Totally. Yeah. No, he's super passionate and I think it was funny just because when, you know, he had a car, we, we were trying to rent like a black Ford Mustang or something like that because Ford was easier to deal with. But yeah, it was just like I had, you know, there was no second thought once once you sort of talk about prices of that stuff, you just go, Well, I've got a black car, I've got a nice car, let's just use that.
00;21;07;24 - 00;21;08;14
KM
What do we have?
00;21;08;14 - 00;21;22;20
BC
Yeah, exactly. And that's such a key thing, like when you're starting out to just look at what's around you and build a script from that. Because you can do you know, if you've got a a garage and you've got a nice car or whatever, it's just like, how can I utilize that in my film? Because that stuff's basically free.
00;21;22;22 - 00;21;34;00
BC
And that's where you get production value, that's where you get all that stuff. And so it's just about, you know, it's such a key thing that you can you can tap into when you're first starting out because it's it's tough to get money the first time.
00;21;34;00 - 00;21;46;19
KM
Yeah. I mean, that's one of my next questions here is like if you had advice for someone trying to get their craft together and they've got 500 to $1000000, what are the kinds of projects that you would write or that you would suggest?
00;21;46;26 - 00;21;49;01
BC
But I've never had that much money.
00;21;49;03 - 00;21;52;04
KM
I think that it goes to that. I want to take your movies.
00;21;52;06 - 00;21;56;25
BC
Papa Man had like six something, but the other ones were all sub three.
00;21;56;27 - 00;22;06;07
KM
Okay, so six, you got six A you're, you're giving advice to you who's never done it before. How do you make a 6 million or 600,000.
00;22;06;07 - 00;22;28;02
BC
Yeah. It's, it's, it's challenging. I mean the one thing that I can do that not a lot of people do is that I can edit and do VFX. So a lot of people have to pay for that service and that adds costs, you know, to get a professional editor and to get VFX done. Like it's very expensive. So, you know, I can unfortunately I've put myself in a position where I can do those things.
00;22;28;02 - 00;22;46;05
BC
And so it's like I need less money because my time doesn't cost me anything, just time, you know, And that sucks. And every time it happens, I hate myself for it. But, you know, it's just it's one of those things where it's like if you can diversify your skill set, that alone adds so much money to the budget that it's kind of invisible.
00;22;46;05 - 00;23;10;01
BC
Like you don't need as much money if you can take on more things. And I'm not saying where every you don't want to be in the costume department, you don't want to be, you know, doing all the ad work and you don't want to be a grip or something like that on your on your shoot. But if you have the ability to to you know, because production is such a small part of the process, it's like, you know, if you're doing a 20 day shoot, that's four weeks of what's probably going to take you almost two years to go from beginning to end.
00;23;10;03 - 00;23;30;11
BC
And most of the money is spent there. But a lot of it, you know, when you're doing your post budget, it's it can get super expensive, you know, especially if you have things like VFX and you've got sound mixing, you got music and all of these things. So anything in that level that's after the production of the film that you can take on yourself, I think is hugely vital to just being able to achieve something at a lower budget.
00;23;30;14 - 00;23;44;04
BC
But if someone came up to me and said that I had 600,000, I don't I don't think it really changes the way I would go because that's still not a lot of money, you know, I mean, it it it gets complicated. The more money you have, you know, it's like the.
00;23;44;05 - 00;24;02;05
KM
Things spiral up like you said to total week. Yeah. They all of a sudden just adding even a good cast member will expect a little bit more in the hotel and then they won't need a driver And then you're, you know, all of a sudden you've got somebody on payroll for the driving in that hotel costs and traveling them.
00;24;02;08 - 00;24;27;21
KM
And so that's great when you get a good actor, but then their costs add up. Yeah, same thing with a scene with five people. If you have ten people in that scene, all of a sudden you need ten people to get through hair and makeup day and get on set it. It's like, Well, great, we've got a good scene, which is five cast of still all those people have to get mixed up and then all this stuff And so it gets it gets very expensive very quick.
00;24;27;24 - 00;24;45;16
BC
Yeah no and also when you add like unions into the thing too, like the you know, if there's different budget tier levels that, you know, it's like 250 and under is like an ultra low budget, then you have like modified low budget all these it kind of has these tiers and every tier comes with different fees and different expectations.
00;24;45;19 - 00;25;00;28
BC
And so the higher you get, the more money that gets eaten up by these fees and stuff like that. So that's why I'm a big advocate of just trying to do as much as you can with as little as you can, because it's just I want to put as much money that I have on the screen as possible.
00;25;00;28 - 00;25;15;00
BC
You know, when you when you're starting to get to administer rate of fees and things like that, it's just it you don't get that. You're not getting like the bang for your buck, like you do an indie where it's just like, okay, I'm going to throw all the money at the screen, try make it look as good as possible.
00;25;15;06 - 00;25;29;21
BC
There's just, you know, and it's just an unfortunate reality of the situation. The bigger you are, the bigger the footprint you have to travel. People you have, you know, you have to set up everywhere you go. And it's just, oh, we have to rent out this building next door so we can stage everybody. And it just becomes this like logistical nightmare.
00;25;29;25 - 00;25;45;25
BC
But you need people and then people cost money. So it's just it's kind of exploding. So, I mean, the advice I would give either way, it's just. Right. Well, you know, and try and look around you and what makes you unique and what about your life is unique because I know a lot of people that I well, I'm just kind of boring.
00;25;45;25 - 00;26;02;23
BC
It's like, Sure. But everybody's boring, you know? No one's like there is no Jack Reacher out there that's just going around beating up guys in bars, you know? Think that there might have been a guy that was just in a bar and he saw a fight and he's like, Oh, that's interesting. What if that guy and then you just sort of go down that path of the what ifs.
00;26;02;23 - 00;26;21;13
BC
So it's taking whatever it is, you work a graveyard shift, whatever, that's great. Like you can what would be the worst thing that could happen in that scenario when you're right, you're at work, you know, take that and start expanding it and then follow. Just sort of go on a small snowball and just see where it leads you, because no one knows more about your job than you.
00;26;21;13 - 00;26;48;07
BC
And you can find those idiosyncrasies of your job and kind of create characters out of that. And it's really interesting. So I think finding the story is more important than the set pieces and things like that. So you can take, you know, figure out what your story is. Why are you telling the story about this person or these people and then craft things around that that are that are relevant to their needs and wants, Because then then all of a sudden you've got a film that feels very cohesive and it's like a package thing.
00;26;48;07 - 00;26;54;03
BC
And even though it's it's about your boring life, it's still very interesting because you're taking a cool spin on it.
00;26;54;05 - 00;27;19;05
KM
You know, what's interesting is like without pumping your tires too much right now, you write, you have done commercials and so you know how to produce and make a budget. You have VFX skills, editing skills and directing skills. So in a sense, for somebody to come up and say, okay, I'm I don't have a film, but I want to be Brown and Christensen and I want to make a bunch of horror movies.
00;27;19;07 - 00;27;24;21
KM
They have to learn all those skills in a sense, or they have to know that they need to start chipping away at a few of them for sure.
00;27;24;22 - 00;27;52;15
BC
Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of indie filmmakers like Joe a Joe Boggess and like Josh Easier. They make movies, low budget stuff a lot of the time. And they're they're just a great partnership. And I think it's just the people that you surround yourself with more than just your own personal skills because, you know, if me and you are working together and you can do this really well and I can do this really well, then finding a way to blend those together so that we can kind of touch on even more like it's almost like a Venn diagram and you're finding out, you know, Well, I'm good at these things, he's good
00;27;52;15 - 00;28;16;00
BC
at these, and then we cross over here, it becomes sort of a you're creating, you're creating more money for your budget just by being who you are. So I think that it's not impossible to do, you know, low budget films. You just have to surround yourself with people that are one supportive and two, just eager to kind of join you on that journey because, you know, no one does it alone ever.
00;28;16;08 - 00;28;18;26
BC
You know, it's it's very rare that someone does it alone.
00;28;19;03 - 00;28;35;09
KM
You need help that's in people in our life. We talk to each other and we talk to yeah, we talk to each other about our ideas as they're coming along and people, you get feedback. And sometimes I think when people don't respond to an idea, you're like, Okay, maybe I'll ditch that one, right? Yeah.
00;28;35;16 - 00;28;54;25
BC
And I think that's a big part of it too. Like, you don't have to work with someone to have a circle of people you trust. You know, like if I can send or I can send a scene to someone, just be like, Hey, is this landing for you? Or whatever? And you just have this unbiased thing by someone that understands a position that you're in that's wildly powerful just to be able to to show them that and have that feedback.
00;28;54;25 - 00;29;14;26
BC
Because, you know, as much as, you know, to be a director and a filmmaker like there is a little bit of ego involved, you need to drop that when you're dealing with that because it's brutal when people are honest with you about your work. If it's not working, you know, I mean, nothing's going to be perfect thing. There's going to be scenes, even in your best movie, you're going to watch a scene that you just cringed through and you just hate.
00;29;14;26 - 00;29;26;19
BC
You. Remember what happened on set that day. You remember that you ran out of time. You remember all these things and you really just you forced the edit to get to the place where it was, where it's passable, but it's not what it could have been. And it drives you insane.
00;29;26;20 - 00;29;32;11
KM
So and then you want to tell everybody about all these problems that you had. Yeah, but you just no one gives a fuck.
00;29;32;11 - 00;29;34;11
BC
No one cares. All they care about is that.
00;29;34;14 - 00;29;50;14
KM
Yes, that's the hardest part for me. Even sending off. I'm better at it now, but sending off anything is not writing all the disclaimers into something about like, Yeah, you know, and just saying, What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. So like, do you have a process for refining the ideas that you're developing?
00;29;50;16 - 00;30;06;06
BC
I mean, a lot of it happens just naturally. Like when you write I'm someone that's, that's really bad at getting stuck. On page 25. I'll write an opening. I'll have a great idea for that. I'll take it all the way to the first act break, and then I get stuck there and I'm like, Oh crap, I need to, like, start a whole new thing.
00;30;06;06 - 00;30;21;03
BC
I need to branch out into all these things. And it's kind of like you get scared of moving forward because you've got this, like really sharp opening. And so then all of a sudden you're like, I'm just going to go back and revise it, you know, and I'm just going to kind of rewrite what I wrote and see if it unlocks anything.
00;30;21;05 - 00;30;37;22
BC
And then all of a sudden you're like, I kind of like this. This is neat. And you really focus on those first 25 and you don't ever just keep expanding and seeing what it can be. So that that's happened a lot. And it's a total just like our, you know, writer's block that just hits and it doesn't happen for everybody.
00;30;37;22 - 00;30;51;27
BC
Like I write with my brother a lot now and he's just like, I'm going to get the pages down. I don't care. I'm just going to power through. It doesn't matter if it's good or not. And that's so powerful just to get it down. Because if you can analyze something and just sort of see from like a glance, you just go, Oh, well, that's not working.
00;30;52;01 - 00;31;06;08
BC
But what would work there? And you just have that collaborative process. So like I've only written one script by myself and that was Super Host and that was even still like, I would send it to Kurt or I'd send a text and I would talk to them and they would have ideas, and you go, Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
00;31;06;08 - 00;31;18;07
BC
And you kind of expand that. So I think that just goes back to just having people around, you know, not necessarily to work with, but just to have that feedback that you, you, you know, you can trust. Yeah.
00;31;18;07 - 00;31;34;12
KM
And then trust their taste totally. There's some people I trust, but I don't actually enjoy their taste too much. But I do trust them to always be honest and I wouldn't be insulted if they said something. However, you also have to enjoy the person's niche of what they like, right. Which seems to be something that you felt like you found.
00;31;34;12 - 00;31;46;24
KM
You and Kurt are both similar in a sense of the movies that you're making and Colin and those guys like that was like a very supportive kind of unit of people that all really like the thrillers and the horrors, right?
00;31;46;24 - 00;32;03;20
BC
Yeah, and just good instincts, like. Yeah, and it's interesting too. It's not like if someone's like, Hey, you really have to pay attention to the note. Like, the note behind the note is something that people say a lot. And I think it's it's, you know, someone's like, Oh, well, that that character, they seem to mean or something like that.
00;32;03;20 - 00;32;19;22
BC
And it's kind of a vague thing. Generally, they don't know how to fix it because they're not as in tune with the script. But if they're saying something kind of like reflect on why they're saying it, it doesn't have to be. If they're like, Oh, that scene where they do that thing that didn't make sense, don't just change that scene.
00;32;19;22 - 00;32;36;00
BC
Kind of analyze the character as a whole and see why that scene's not working. So it's not it's not just that scene that's wrong. It could be the lead up, the buildup, any of the setup for that character or whatever happening in that scene that you just need to tweet to get it naturally. Yeah, get there. You know, so it's it's tough.
00;32;36;01 - 00;32;55;10
KM
Yeah. I think it's sometimes like you're trying to figure out the plot point of a scene, but then you realize what's happening is the character stuff, right? And like, how is this scene how is this scene building onto what's happening later, I suppose is one aspect is it gets it's yeah, it is tough because they're all it's all sweater right Totally.
00;32;55;10 - 00;32;56;22
KM
One thing connects to another.
00;32;56;22 - 00;33;15;10
BC
Yeah you get the ripple effect when you start changing things. And I'm like, Oh no, that's change this change now that's, that's, that's, that's a terrible thing to happen. But yeah, it's, it's basically, it's sometimes you're forcing a character to do something and if your script is working, it should feel like it was easy when you look back at it.
00;33;15;10 - 00;33;47;07
BC
Like obviously they did this and this and this, but there's so much work to make sure that that's natural. So when it's not natural, it kind of sticks out and you're like, Oh, like that feels off. And I don't know why, but it doesn't. And so it's, you know, it's massaging those things out. But yeah, it's, it's weird because when you get to a point where it's just like that aha moment, that's, that's like so, so awesome for everybody, you know, if someone else and that's why feedback is so important because even if they say something, it might be wrong, but it might inspire something in you to be like, Oh, I see what they're
00;33;47;07 - 00;34;03;09
BC
trying to say. If I do this and that, you know, and you can kind of figure it out that way. So it's again, it's just having the collaborators and and it's hard to say that because, you know, I fortunately have a good group of people around me. If you're just starting out like you probably don't have that. So it's tough.
00;34;03;09 - 00;34;23;22
BC
And I mean, there are a million resources online. You've got like subreddits for everything. So it's you can sort of find those people and find that feedback and but that's the risk taking part of it, right? Like you have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions because film is so it, film is the most unique art form in the world because it isn't made in a vacuum, you know, like the writer.
00;34;23;22 - 00;34;36;06
BC
If you're hiring a writer to do whatever, they're in a vacuum. It's just like they're writing away in a room. And then all of a sudden you have the director come in and all of a sudden the limitations start happening. We don't have enough money. We can't get the cast for this. Oh, what if this character was this?
00;34;36;06 - 00;34;49;21
BC
And so and you have all these things happening and all of a sudden you're basically rewriting the script, but your fingers have been cut off and so you're just smashing away at the keyboard. Then you get to the edit, you have to rewrite it again. And all the things that didn't work in production because of, oh, it started raining that day.
00;34;49;21 - 00;35;06;14
BC
We had to go inside. The scene was moved. So then the editors like Arms are chopped off and he's slamming his face into the keyboard, trying to rewrite the script again. And that's basically what film is. And like, you don't have a painter that paints a picture of someone and then someone comes in and they have no concept and they start, they redraw it.
00;35;06;17 - 00;35;14;06
BC
You know, you have a book that's really op eds on a book, sure. But you don't have someone writing a book. And then it just gets completely rewritten like.
00;35;14;09 - 00;35;31;28
KM
Ten different scenarios. Yeah, it's you know, it's funny you say that because I said once that I said it a couple of times at the beginning of shoots. Hey, everybody, thanks for coming out. This is so special that we're here. We all agree to make this script as best we can. Like, how rare is that in life that all these people come together to make this one creative piece?
00;35;32;00 - 00;35;47;19
KM
It doesn't happen very often. But then what you're saying is I'm missing the part where it's going to get totally fucked up. Yeah, there's so many ways. Six ways from Sunday at every stage. Yeah, all the way to post-production, you know, like, and you'll be, like, jamming to scenes together that didn't even make sense.
00;35;47;21 - 00;35;50;13
BC
It's a miracle that movies. It's crazy.
00;35;50;13 - 00;36;09;27
KM
Yeah, it is crazy. That's kind of part of the part that I love about it. And people. There's a great movie called Broadcast News where Roger Ebert is talking about how in life some people are driven to those high pressure scenarios because that's actually something they find exciting and we complain about it. Everyone in film talks about the war stories.
00;36;09;27 - 00;36;38;03
KM
Yeah, but there's something about us and like same with people who are journalists, like that immediacy and I really love it. Like on set, especially sometimes shoot goes wrong and it's real tough. But you, you go, okay, let's just make it a movie. Let's fix it right? But I don't know if everybody is cut out for that pressure, the stress or like for a period of time when I was just started working at some of those studios, 24 hours a day, all the time you're expected to be on no matter what.
00;36;38;07 - 00;36;55;01
KM
Yeah. And because you're servicing actors and people with massive egos and they're expecting that if they have a problem, they've just flown to Vancouver. Just matter. That is Saturday morning. Totally, you know. Yeah. So how do you think about that? About like everybody, the people who get into film and it, you know, they get cut.
00;36;55;01 - 00;37;09;23
BC
Out. I think I well, I think it's interesting because film, again it's so diverse like the amount of jobs are there. And like when I was in film school, I didn't know what I wanted. I wanted to be a director. And then I was like, Oh, well, I kind of like shooting, so maybe I'll be a director of photography, but then I'm a, you know, I'm a narcissist.
00;37;09;23 - 00;37;27;09
BC
So I was like, No, I'll go back to directing. And that became my thing. But there's so many positions that are still creative, like the props department. I love the props department is amazing. Like what they can build and find. Like I go on Facebook marketplace and find an old pay phone. I'm like, I wish I was props so I could own that and just have a reason to own that thing because it's so cool.
00;37;27;11 - 00;37;33;25
BC
Because, I mean, it's those, it's bringing all the elements together and like, you know, wardrobe and there's so much creativity going on.
00;37;33;26 - 00;37;50;29
KM
Hair and makeup. I was watching the movie. I don't want to say it because it's a good movie and the hair is so bad. I mean, they made this guys look older and his hair is so bad I couldn't see. And there's one scene where he steps out in the bright sunlight and I was just laughing. I'm like, they didn't have like a big enough shade because you can it looks so terrible.
00;37;50;29 - 00;38;09;07
KM
And then you look at Bradley Pitt in this. Mr. movie, he looks amazing and the makeup is unreal and it's clearly next level, right? That's the thing to me where a lot of people don't have until you've seen it go wrong. Right. Costumes and and hair make production.
00;38;09;07 - 00;38;09;25
BC
Department.
00;38;09;25 - 00;38;29;15
KM
Production department, production design. It's just such a big one, too. That is very under appreciated, troubling people at large. Same with editing, too. Like, I think that's an underappreciated skill set. Like they tried to cut it out of the Academy Awards last year. Right, Right, right. It came back too many people. Yeah. Those little elements are, like you say, props.
00;38;29;17 - 00;38;30;19
KM
That's what makes your movie.
00;38;30;20 - 00;38;47;05
BC
Totally. And so I think people getting into the industry, they they can see they don't know that, you know, they don't know until they experience and they go on set like there was this kid recently. I had a friend who reached out. He's like, Hey, my friend's son is a senior in high school. He wants to get into filmmaking, but he doesn't know how can you have a call with him?
00;38;47;05 - 00;39;03;20
BC
So I was like, okay, cool. So we had a call and I was just like, Well, what do you want to do? Like, what is your interest? Is like, I don't know. I just want to make movies. And I was like, Okay, cool. So fortunately Kurt was on a film producing in town and I was just like, Hey, can this guy come out for the weekend and just be on set and like, he can do whatever and he can just sort of see the positions.
00;39;03;22 - 00;39;18;02
BC
And so he went out and he went for a couple of days and was just sort of I think he was in the department, but he was able to see everything and just sort of see how even though there's like a scene going on, there's so many departments outside of that that are working in unison, it's like this well-oiled machine.
00;39;18;04 - 00;39;31;19
BC
And it's exciting to be part of that because, one, the pressure's a little lower than like a film. You know, the director has to take on the brunt of all that pressure. There's still a ton of pressure to make sure your props and all these things, you know, your hair and your wardrobe and they're all great. But it's a different kind of pressure.
00;39;31;19 - 00;39;51;17
BC
You know, it's and it's it's there's these great positions that people make great livings on. And it's just it's a great place to work. You know, the energy on set, there's nothing like it when things are going. It's just this chaotic energy that is so fun to be a part of. And, you know, so if you're starting out and you there's so many positions that you can find interest in.
00;39;51;17 - 00;40;14;00
BC
And like if I started over, I'd probably go into props because I love props. Were production design or something, you know, and just being, being able to focus my energy on this one thing because, I mean, directing is mostly babysitting. You know, most of your work happens in prep, you've got the script, you've got your shot list, you've got all these things you're building, but it's like you're building relationships with actors so you can communicate effectively with them to get them to do what you want.
00;40;14;02 - 00;40;29;14
BC
And they're always resistant to do what you want because they want to do what they want. And so you're kind of managing everything. And it's basically it's babies, it's camp, it's summer camp. You're a counselor, everyone's the kids and you're just like, you're just making sure everyone's happy and doing the right things and all that stuff.
00;40;29;16 - 00;40;42;25
KM
It's a lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control, it's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.
00;40;42;27 - 00;40;58;06
BC
And just managing chaos. It's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like, you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, and even if you don't, you're acting like you do.
00;40;58;07 - 00;41;18;25
BC
You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing. Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. Allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go, like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped.
00;41;18;25 - 00;41;25;23
KM
And so they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is just like, well he doesn't know what he wants, so we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.
00;41;25;26 - 00;41;44;23
BC
And you hear that a lot. Like, oh, the director didn't know what they wanted the director photography. All of a sudden he's picking all the shots and the identity of the film is and they're like, it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean, so ideally, again, like I've got a great cinematographer with Clayton Moore that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things we've worked together for since 2009.
00;41;44;26 - 00;42;03;07
BC
And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it's just it's very it's amazing, you know? So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is.
00;42;03;07 - 00;42;16;12
BC
And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively you can figure out what you can and can't do. Like I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time. We got to move on.
00;42;16;14 - 00;42;39;10
BC
I know. I'm good condensing down and just being like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other thing that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that. They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that.
00;42;39;10 - 00;42;49;15
BC
Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.
00;42;49;17 - 00;43;17;21
KM
It's funny because you know you're going to go back to stealing it, the non union, where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just them and a sound mixer back to the fight, the final scene with him in the field when he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days.
00;43;31;23 - 00;43;47;17
BC
And they're always resistant to do what you want because they want to do what they want. And so you're kind of managing everything. And it's basically it's babies, it's camp, it's summer camp. You're a counselor, everyone's the kids and you're just like, you're just making sure everyone's happy and doing the right things and all that stuff. It's it's a.
00;43;47;17 - 00;44;00;18
KM
Lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control. It's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.
00;44;00;20 - 00;44;18;08
BC
And just managing chaos. That's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, even if you don't, you're acting like you do. You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing.
00;44;18;08 - 00;44;36;21
BC
Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. And allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped in.
00;44;36;22 - 00;44;43;13
KM
So they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is, just like, well he doesn't know what he wants. So we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.
00;44;43;16 - 00;44;59;29
BC
And you hear that a lot. Like, Oh, the director didn't know what they wanted, said the director of photography, of sudden picking, of the shots and the identity of the film is and there like it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean so ideally again, like I've got a great cinematographer, Clayton Moore, that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things.
00;44;59;29 - 00;45;15;24
BC
We've worked together for since 2009. And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it just it's very it's amazing, you know?
00;45;15;24 - 00;45;33;08
BC
So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is. And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively can figure out what you can and can't do. Like, I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time.
00;45;33;08 - 00;45;48;28
BC
We got to move on. I know I'm good at condensing down and just be like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other scene that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that.
00;45;49;01 - 00;46;07;03
BC
They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that. Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.
00;46;07;10 - 00;46;26;16
KM
It's funny because, you know, you're getting back to stealing at the non union where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director, Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just him and a sound mixer.
00;46;26;16 - 00;46;42;26
KM
Back to the fight in the final scene with him in the field. When he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days. And he went, He just told them, Hey, let's go do this right. And they're like, They would all be not even eligible for insurance if something had happen, but they did it right.
00;46;42;26 - 00;46;48;12
KM
That seems I love that part of our business. I'm not saying that's a good thing to do. I'm just saying sometimes.
00;46;48;15 - 00;47;07;23
BC
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's and it's funny how much you can get away with, like if you're seeing the faces, focus on that because the emotion, the scenes, you know, and it's figuring out which scenes need the work. Like if it's just like a scene where you're just doing a little exposition, try and just hustle through that because the scenes where you need to, you know, do a gag or something like that, they always take longer than you expect.
00;47;07;26 - 00;47;28;04
BC
So if you can just focus on getting the main things and just keeping a tally, like, okay, we need an answer of the phone being dialed, like we'll shoot that later another day even if it's after production. Like I'll just do it in my garage, whatever. I do that all the time and it saves so much time because, you know, you'll see like David Fincher, he'll do a shot where Jake Gyllenhaal throws a book on a chair on a on the car seat beside him.
00;47;28;12 - 00;47;47;16
BC
These are like 75 takes and it's just but he's got 100 plus days for his films. On an indie world. You just don't have that. Like, you just need to make sure that every minute of that day is spent moving forward. You know, if you get lost, it's all of a sudden like on Z, for example, there is a scene and it's a dumb nothing scene.
00;47;47;16 - 00;48;05;05
BC
It's just a quick conversation between a mother and a father. And we're in this tiny office room and I go in on blocking with everybody. And then all of a sudden one of the actors goes like, Well, what if I did this? And then the other actors like, Well, no, what if we did this? And all of a sudden you're in this situation where everybody's watching you, You're like in a like a cage.
00;48;05;08 - 00;48;22;04
BC
Everybody's like looking at their watches. And we spent like 45 minutes talking about why she should step here rather than here. And it was nothing. It means nothing in the film. You know, it's such a small scene, but we spent so much time trying to figure it out. And until at the end, I just was like, everybody shut up.
00;48;22;04 - 00;48;27;22
BC
Let's just do it like we planned at the beginning and just we don't have time for this, you know? And it's so it's so it's so.
00;48;27;22 - 00;48;43;04
KM
Adam Big show. Yeah. So the actors are starting to do it, and then they do it more and more. And then all of a sudden you have these long blocking sessions and I, I don't. Yeah, I saw this one director completely lose control. He really did lose control. Yeah. And there is right to the end. Like the final scene.
00;48;43;04 - 00;48;59;25
KM
I remember he was fighting with the actor and the actors like, I'm not going to feel this way about this event. And he's like, What? And he's like, Please, just do it the way I'm asking for it. And he's like, No, I would be upset or something. I can remember exactly the details and I couldn't believe it. I was like, How is this happening to the But I guess that happens a lot.
00;48;59;28 - 00;49;05;03
KM
Big, big actors, especially. I mean, that's where it's so challenging because sometimes their idea is right.
00;49;05;03 - 00;49;11;05
BC
Right. But it's also time again, like you don't you have to make a decision now because, you know.
00;49;11;08 - 00;49;13;21
KM
You don't feel that pressure and they're not going to be editing, right?
00;49;13;23 - 00;49;33;05
BC
Yeah, I just I mean, I just did another film recently and I had some text messages the day before we were shooting a scene. And they're like, this doesn't make sense when going with this. And they're like micro analyzing the script. And I was just kind of like, like I didn't have a good answer for it. I just knew that the moment would likely work because I the way I saw it.
00;49;33;08 - 00;49;47;06
BC
And so I talked to another actor and I was just like, I like I don't like I don't want to offend them and be like, they're wrong or anything, but like, I just need to get this thing because it's very technical and specific, but I don't have the right way to say it. And he was just like, Yeah, just basically just say that.
00;49;47;06 - 00;50;02;19
BC
Like, just say it. That's how you want to see it. And so, like, I use that in the conversation. I said, I totally understand what you're saying but I know it's going to work because this specific moment in this genre and they're going to play together really well, you just you just have to trust me like we've worked together before.
00;50;02;24 - 00;50;20;10
BC
It's just going to, you know, if it doesn't work, it's on me. It's not on you. You know, most interesting thing to me is when you write something, you have a voice in your head. These characters say this line this way. Nine times out of ten, the actor comes out to a table read or whatever on set, and they say, In a way, you're like, Whoa, that's a was a shock to my system.
00;50;20;10 - 00;50;38;29
BC
That's not how I thought it would be said. And you can get lost and be like, Well, I need to recreate what I saw without realizing, like what they're doing is still good and valid, you know? And that's a big thing too. Like temp love, where you use like temp music in a movie and then all of a sudden you replace it with score or soundtrack that you get and you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00;50;38;29 - 00;50;56;00
BC
This is off. Because I've seen this so many times with this other thing. And it becomes that sort of issue of just like you have to step back and be objective about it because, you know, the audience will never know what you wrote. They'll never know what you were, what happened on set. All they know is what's in front of them.
00;50;56;00 - 00;51;05;10
BC
So if you can just step back and see it from that lens, it can change your perception on how things work, you know, and it's it's something that everybody struggles with. I still do all the time.
00;51;05;13 - 00;51;15;29
KM
You have a found footage film that you're editing right now. Are you inspired? Were you inspired by Blair Witch and Cloverfield like why did you decide to do a found footage from I Love Found Footage Film.
00;51;16;02 - 00;51;32;06
BC
I mean, in this particular case, it was a it was a gimmick that I'd never seen before. And I really wanted to do it because it's so novel. And so I think there's I think found footage is great when you can make it work properly, like, you know. BLAIR Which is so great because they're documenting a thing so natural that they would be filming.
00;51;32;13 - 00;51;51;06
BC
You know, you have something like Rec where it's like, you know, a news reporter. They're filming it because that's his job he's filming. It makes sense. So if you can get to that point where the reason people are filming makes sense, it creates makes it so much more believable. You know, like there was a movie called Dash Cam where it's a girl live streaming pretty much for the entire movie.
00;51;51;08 - 00;52;11;01
BC
And so it makes sense that she's constantly recording. The problem is when you get to those moments of, you know, the scary things like that, like why are they still doing it? I think the Blair Witch, they did a great job of it when they're like seeing things through the lens, gave you this disconnect and it made it easier for them to cope with what they were going through.
00;52;11;04 - 00;52;27;28
BC
And I think that was really smart. So I think I mean, found footage still has a ton of life left. It just has to be right. You know, like everything doesn't have to be the you know, there's so many you know, there's a ring doorbell on everybody's door, you know, what is that door? See, You know, you could write a story like a short film about that.
00;52;27;29 - 00;52;50;22
BC
Yeah. And it's film footage. But it's not what you would think of found footage. So there's there's all these different kind of avenues of that medium that haven't been found. But I mean, Blair Witch, you know, it wasn't the first, but it definitely it did a new thing with, with how they did it in the documentary feel like all that was really novel but and going really hard into horror and creating this mythos.
00;52;50;22 - 00;53;10;06
BC
But the biggest thing that they did was creating the viral marketing around it, which no one had ever seen. So people are watching these, you know, watching these news reports about these kids that went missing and their footage was found and there was this like this moment of, well, wait, was this real? Like when I saw the film, I saw an advanced screening in Langley, B.C., with my cousin.
00;53;10;06 - 00;53;28;22
BC
He got these midnight screening tickets. And when when we got them, this was 1999. And like, the Internet was still young. This is pretty social media. So all you got was the content they were giving you. You know, it's like, Oh, there's this website that has all this evidence of these kids. And so you're feeding, you're creating this feedback loop of everybody being like, Is this real?
00;53;28;22 - 00;53;57;13
BC
So I went to that movie and I'm in the eighth grade and I'm like, I'm like watching these people getting hunted down and killed. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm watching this. Like, this shouldn't be legal, you know? And that was just insanely effective marketing. And so I think that's one thing that's been lost with film right now is just having the creator of the project or the director or whatever, being more involved in the marketing because like what happens is the movie gets taken from you and they do a trailer and it's telling.
00;53;57;13 - 00;54;11;24
BC
It's spoiling things that you're like, No, that's part of the experience is not knowing that, but it's out there for everybody. And ultimately it doesn't really matter because you're just trying to get eyeballs and I understand that like you need to sell the movie to be like, Hey, there's 100 million movies out there right now, but you need to watch this one.
00;54;11;29 - 00;54;24;24
BC
So we're going to tell you everything. And that's why everyone's like, Don't watch the trailers. It spoils everything. They're doing that because they need to show you the best bits so that you'll be interested enough to watch because there's no shortage of content. You've got Netflix, you've got Hulu, you've got Craig.
00;54;24;24 - 00;54;49;21
KM
You've got amazing people making videos on their phones that are awesome. Crazy. I just hilarious stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Brandon, I want to end on a high note. That was so fun. I knew this was going to be fun to talk to you. And I would love to do probably another ten conversations because I had a lot of respect for you and I just knew that we'd be able to like, vibe out for a minute about all the crazy aspects of film.
00;54;49;24 - 00;55;07;07
KM
So just to sign off, this is brought to you by Stryker and our mission with this interview series is to shine a spotlight on talented filmmakers and Canadian filmmakers, and our hope is to provide tools to help people make better films and to save time on set. So thank you.
00;55;07;09 - 00;55;07;23
BC
No problem.
00;00;00;17 - 00;00;22;20
Host: Kyle McCachen
Today on the behind the scenes interview series, we have writer director producer Brandon Christensen. He's completed five feature films and sold them internationally and has another film coming out this year. For one week, his film Z, was ahead of Marvel's Avengers in the box office in Mexico. Brandon is a specialist in horror films and the majority of his films can be seen on AMC's streaming service Shudder.
00;00;22;22 - 00;00;24;28
KM
So thanks for being here today.
00;00;24;29 - 00;00;26;26
Guest: Brandon Christensen
No problem.
00;00;26;29 - 00;00;37;03
KM
So if you were going to reflect on your journey in the film industry, having made five four feature films, do you consider yourself lucky?
00;00;37;05 - 00;00;59;15
BC
Oh, definitely. I mean, I think a part of it is not just luck, but it's also just the willingness to take risks, you know, and just the situation with making films and stuff like that. Everything is always about risk taking, you know? Like, I think that now that we live in a time where everybody has the technology and things like that, there is not as many hurdles as there was, you know, 20, 30 years ago.
00;00;59;18 - 00;01;19;22
BC
So it really just becomes like an inner battle that you have to like. Can you overcome the fear of failure, all of these things, and just get something out there. I mean, any anytime you're doing any sort of artistic thing, painting, music, drawing, anything like that, you're putting yourself out there. And so there's that fear of failure, fear of like looking dumb, whatever it is. So I do think that a lot of it is just having the willingness to put yourself out there, which is a huge part of it. So, yeah, I mean, it's totally lucky if you can if you can do it and create a career out of it and sort of sustain yourself, I think that's where the luck is. Because I know a lot of talented people that have made stuff and they've kind of gotten stuck on that first film or stuck in post-production on the first movie and it's never really gone to the next level. And while I'm still, you know, very much an independent filmmaker, I've sort of created a sustainable business model that allows me to have some flexibility and not be constantly waiting for money and things like that. Like I've got sort of a good pool of resources that I can go to, and it's been nice to just sort of keep the momentum rolling because if you can get into a position where you're constantly waiting for money coming. But it's tough. So, I mean, if you're trying to make expensive features like $1,000,000, $2 million, that money, that's a lot of money. You know, it's hard to get someone to sacrifice that because, you know, the reality is most movies don't make money, right? So if you're.
00;02;31;02 - 00;02;32;29
KM
Well, break even or lose.
00;02;32;29 - 00;02;44;23
BC
Totally. So it's it's you know, it's a tough business model to present to someone that's you're like asking for money short of having just like a billionaire whale that you can, go to.
00;02;44;25 - 00;03;01;28
KM
And how many of us I feel like a lot of us filmmakers do know, like these whales and stuff. But you're never moving forward, I'm not sure if you've had success with them. I have a couple of guys who I know who are high net worth. They're interested in my films and you chat about it, but that also if they're not in the industry, it also seems to be maybe like a fool's errand. Do you think that's true?
00;03;03;05 - 00;03;22;23
BC
Yeah, I think it is a fool's errand. The entire industry is insane. It's like, I don't know. I mean, like, you know, if most of these projects lose money or barely recoup, it's it's not really a great investment vehicle. You have to find someone that doesn't care about the business side. You know, if they are that kind of rich, high net worth person. But they also just care about supporting people that are starting out or something like that, you know? And I think that I think I wish that the industry had more of that in it. And like the actors and things like that, like there's there is this gatekeeping with these, you know, you have you'll have actors that are talking about, oh, the indie scene is dying, but it's like we'll go be in an indie, You know, you could launch someone's career tomorrow if you just signed on for some cheap 20 day shoot or 15 day shoot and just sort of helped, you know, helped grow these filmmakers. But they don't do that. I think if you're an actor who wants to act, I think indies are a great place to do it because, you know, they're not all great, but it allows you to be on camera and try things a lot, you know?
00;04;03;28 - 00;04;09;17
KM
What do you think is so special about horror and Thriller in the indie space? Because that's where you focus.
00;04;09;20 - 00;04;32;09
BC
I think it's just a great medium for directors to just sort of try things because there's no there's a market appeal for horror that most genres don't have because comedy is very tough because humor doesn't translate across, you know, boundaries. So like you go to Japan, you go to you go to Germany. An American joke doesn't land the way it does there.
00;04;32;09 - 00;04;52;28
BC
So there's kind of this there's this there's just sort of a disconnect there. So the market, unless you've got like a Seth Rogen or something like that, leading your film that has that international appeal, it's very kind of focused on North America. So with horror, the idea is. King So it's like if you've got a cool jump scare or something like that, like that's going to translate everywhere.
00;04;52;28 - 00;05;10;09
BC
You know, it's just people in Latin America are scared of the same thing as people in China, you know? So it's like it's it's more sustainable because you open up the market to the film more than you would with the comedy or a drama. I think action films, they do the same thing, but you need more money to shoot action.
00;05;10;09 - 00;05;11;21
BC
So it's a little bit tougher to get into.
00;05;11;24 - 00;05;24;14
KM
Yeah, I want to get back to that about like marketing and why you just decided from a business point of view and also your career in your business. But you mentioned jump scares. How do you give me three tips on how to make a jump scare work?
00;05;24;17 - 00;05;50;04
BC
Three tips? I think it's all it's kind of like a joke. Jump scares are basically jokes. They're the same thing. You have a setup and you have a punch line. And so it's just all about how you do that. I mean, like even though Quentin Tarantino doesn't do jump scares or horror or anything like that, you'll watch something like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where Brad Pitt goes to the ranch and he's just pulling the strings of tension so long that you're just so uncomfortable watching it.
00;05;50;07 - 00;06;09;17
BC
There isn't a jump scare payoff, but it has that same sort of anxiety building feeling when he's just slowly going through this ranch and you have the sound design and every creak and you just like dreading what's going to happen because, you know, you're bringing like the history of this ranch and these people. And who are these, you know, these cultists are that, you know, that something can go wrong because he's not a real character.
00;06;09;17 - 00;06;27;22
BC
So, you know, is he in danger? I don't know. But there's that unknown that you kind of tap into, but you just sort of pull that string as long as you can before it snaps. And then if you, you know, and then the other side of that is you can pull it as long as you want. And then the decision on when the jump scare lands is up to you.
00;06;27;23 - 00;06;42;05
BC
You know, you can be like, Oh, I'm going to fake it or I'm going to keep pulling it and make them even worse. And then there's nothing at all. And it leaves them kind of like wanting more. And then you hit them like it's all about a falls. Yeah, it's all kind of timing and just sort of how you do it.
00;06;42;05 - 00;07;06;20
BC
I mean, the biggest one that I've I've probably had was in Z with the kid falling off and it's kind of like, so there's a scene where the main kid Josh is, he's become kind of an outcast and his friend's parents don't want him around anymore. So he, he gets suspended and King Kong and Tracy brings him to see him again to just sort of force him back into the situation and find out why they're not talking anymore.
00;07;06;22 - 00;07;24;28
BC
And Josh goes, when he's there, he's like, is, you know, is I think Daniel, is he upstairs? And they're like, yeah, he's upstairs. And you can see the hesitancy on the mother that she doesn't want him to go up and play because she doesn't trust this kid. So she goes off. That hesitancy kind of goes away as their conversation gets more intense.
00;07;25;01 - 00;07;43;01
BC
And then as the conversation kind of comes to a almost a close, the moment happens where the kid gets thrown off the stairs upstairs and just sort of slams through the frame. And, you know, for the audience, you have the setup and you know that she's she's scared of him going up there because what happens is what she's worried is going to happen.
00;07;43;03 - 00;08;00;28
BC
But the conversation goes so serious and everything that we're focused, we've totally forgotten about it and so is the mom. So we're kind of like in the mom's headspace, just like narrowing in the focus of the scene. And then right when she's like at her most comfortable and they've kind of resolved their issue, the thing that she forgot about happens behind her and it's just like the worst thing in the world.
00;08;00;28 - 00;08;08;14
BC
So it's just about taking, you know, you set it up, you kind of play with the audience for a sec, and then you go, Oh, remember this? We did that, you know, and then you hit them.
00;08;08;14 - 00;08;26;09
KM
And then he's pretty. The kid. Yeah. Get hurt badly. Yeah. So when you're coming up with that, I know you're funny. So do you think those things are funny? Because I was thinking that's one of your strengths that you have in the thrillers from I've seen that. I've seen from that gang of people that we've all worked with.
00;08;26;11 - 00;08;37;26
KM
One of the things that I've always noticed is that you get laughs in some of your scripts, where or not, in some of your screenings, where some of the other filmmakers that I know I find can't land jokes as.
00;08;37;29 - 00;08;53;26
BC
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that there's some absurdity to it that when you react like that, you kind of check yourself and you're like, Holy crap, Like this thing just made me jump. And that's funny. And if you're in a theater, there's almost like a communal aspect of that where everyone's like, Oh, you jump to and it lighten the mood and it is really fun.
00;08;53;29 - 00;09;16;06
BC
But, you know, I think Jordan Peele has talked about I think he's done sort of the best job with like get out where he has genuinely scary stuff, but then genuinely hilarious stuff because he's got like a great comedy background. So it's I think that they're just such you if you can weave them together and you can make the audience like feel this high and then this low immediately, it just creates kind of a rollercoaster effect for them.
00;09;16;06 - 00;09;31;23
BC
So they're kind of like they don't know where they're going to be at any one point. They're just a scene happens and it's like, is this going to be scary or is it going to be funny? Or could it be both? You know, I think the final scene when, you know, everybody's sort of dead and the police lights pull up at the very end of the movie.
00;09;31;29 - 00;09;45;29
BC
The original ending was cops, and it was going to be like, oh, the black violence thing. And he gets arrested. It's a really dark ending, but I believe it was a studio note to make it his friend. And so now you watch that and you're just dreading that like, Oh my God, he's going to be like, He's innocent.
00;09;45;29 - 00;10;15;09
BC
But we know what happened. But the cops won't. But then his friend comes out and he says, Oh, on his DSA, and then you just like, Oh, it's such a feel good moment. And it it could have been a completely different feeling. But you go into those credits and you just love it because it's so fun. Yeah, you're not totally So I think I think there's just such a, you know, you look at the, the theater masks and it's comedy and drama and there's just so there's so interlinked because I think that just those two emotions, the highs and the lows, they just play together so well.
00;10;15;09 - 00;10;19;29
BC
So if you can tap into that, it doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty, it's pretty good.
00;10;19;29 - 00;10;24;06
KM
Okay, so list off three tips for making a jump scare work.
00;10;24;09 - 00;10;43;10
BC
Have a set up you know, try and know your punch line ahead of it. It's not just like an improv joke. It has to have a structure. So you want to have a setup to what's going to happen. So you want to have whatever story device that's going to happen that's going to resolve itself in that same scene or later, whatever the payoff is.
00;10;43;12 - 00;11;02;02
BC
And really just like Stretch the tension as long as you can, you know, try and distance yourself from that set up or try and, you know, if it's a someone walking through a scary house, just real every make it slower than slow, you know, you just want to milk every bit of tension that you can. And then really it's just about timing.
00;11;02;02 - 00;11;17;02
BC
And a lot of that is just gut instinct. But when you do hit that, make sure that it hits hard and it all hits in unison. So like the sound, if you're going to have a jump scare like Stinger, make sure that's hitting on frame accurate like because if you get sort of a double stutter, it'll ruin the whole thing.
00;11;17;02 - 00;11;36;06
BC
So yeah. So if you're like in the mix and you're looking at it, just make sure that the cut and the audio and the music, whatever all the elements that are happening, whatever it is, just make sure that they're landing for you. I think the hardest part about it is, you know, it's coming. It's hard to sort of step back and see it objectively.
00;11;36;09 - 00;11;53;29
BC
So if you can sit and, you know, just I'm fairly good at it now where I'm able to watch something and kind of forget everything around it and just sort of see it in a vacuum, but just sort of trying to forget what you know, because it is really hard. I mean, at this level, we don't have test audiences and stuff like that.
00;11;53;29 - 00;12;09;03
BC
We just can't afford it. So it is just very much, you know, your instincts and hoping it works. And so it's just focusing and just making sure that those moments because it's like a good joke if you if you fumble, if you fumble on the payoff and the the the plan.
00;12;09;05 - 00;12;10;14
KM
Or even the delivery.
00;12;10;15 - 00;12;26;11
BC
Totally, it ruins it. So it's it's it's just like the same as a joke. You just have to make sure you nail those beats and rehearse it and play with it and practice it. And then, you know, just hope it works because even sometimes they don't. Even if you get it right. There's a great book by Walter Merge called In the Blink of an Eye.
00;12;26;11 - 00;12;45;05
BC
It's about editing and like how they, like, cut like the English patient and stuff like that. It's really short book, but it's really great because he he just he's, he puts it in such a eloquent way of how like he'll watch the same edit over and over so he'll, he'll watch the scene and he'll watch the edit and he'll be like, okay, is that right?
00;12;45;05 - 00;13;11;14
BC
And then he'll watch it again and, you know, hit the button when he thinks the edit should be. And he does it over and over and over until every time he hits that button, the edit is exactly on the frame that it should be. So it's just this repetition. I mean, you know, you hear about comedians going to do stand up and they make everybody put their phones in those bags that they can't access and film and, you know, spoil anything, because a lot of the time, unless they're spending like an entire year just practicing and workshopping.
00;13;11;14 - 00;13;28;09
BC
Right. And so they get to the point finally, when they do, they're set for Netflix, whatever it is. And now they've got it honed in and they've they know the reactions, they know all the beats and things like that. It's very similar to like a film screening. Like the first time I watch one of my movies, certain things land and certain things don't.
00;13;28;09 - 00;13;48;21
BC
And it's kind of disappointing at first, but eventually you learn what is working and you kind of lean into it and, you know, if this is, it just becomes part of the experience. You just know because the audiences react very similarly because it is it's not like a comedy set where if you go to one place and you do another, your timing's off a little bit like, this is a movie so that the timing is the same the whole time.
00;13;48;23 - 00;14;00;17
BC
But yeah, it's kind of fun because you know, like I'm like, oh, 28 minutes, there's a scare that's going to happen. I know what's going to get an audience reaction, so I'm going to pull out my phone and film it. And you have like a cool clip of everyone going like, Oh, and, and that's cool.
00;14;00;18 - 00;14;22;09
KM
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Like, audience screenings is something you can't afford at this level. And another thing I just noticed is good actors, people who are, well, really good, well known actors, obviously they're what make our films. Yeah. And we're always trying to get the best actors we can with limited budget. How do you how do you go about that?
00;14;22;11 - 00;14;40;09
BC
That's tough. I mean, a lot of it is because now that I've done multiple, I've got circles of people that I can talk to, you know, like when I did Super Host, that was such a that was my first, like truly soup. I mean, that's not true. It was, but it was a very low budget film and it has such small cast that I just cast it with friends and friends of friends.
00;14;40;09 - 00;14;54;25
BC
And by that point, since I'd already done two, I had sort of a circle of trust built up where I could ask, you know, like I would ask someone, Oh, you know, Oscar Chow, you know, what's he like? How is he to work with him and say, Oh, he's great, he's amazing. And so you you, you use that information.
00;14;55;01 - 00;15;16;29
BC
And I mean, ultimately, actors there's so many talented actors, right? Like, you can get a great performance from a lot of people. But to me, the most important thing is just having fun on set, you know, like having people that can do the work and do it well, but also enjoy their time, enjoy your company because, you know, I like to run a looser said like I get you know, it's just you get Red Bull in me and it's just like chaos.
00;15;16;29 - 00;15;40;09
BC
So you need to you need to find people that are around you that can kind of like not not push away that energy. Because if you can if it gets very collaborative and very fun and it's just like, you know, movies are a marathon, they're just such a slog. So if you can find those people that you can surround yourself with that have a similar energy and they're there for the same reason, it just makes the experience so much more fun.
00;15;40;09 - 00;15;45;15
BC
And, you know, when you when you walk away from that set, you've got like lifelong friends, which is, you know, so awesome.
00;15;45;15 - 00;16;09;00
KM
So yeah, it's wild how much goes into just how much time is spent during a movie production. That is, I guess it's 24 hours a day. It feels like for a few months. Totally. And then the release and the pressure. Yeah. You know, even the actors, they all feel pressure. Everyone wants it to be received well, and you don't exactly know how well it'll be received, Right?
00;16;09;02 - 00;16;20;13
KM
It's pretty wild. So speaking of wild experiences on set, tell me about that movie set in the desert where you guys ended up with an RV coated in blood.
00;16;20;15 - 00;16;36;08
BC
Yeah. So it stands as Sands Red. That was the first time I ever got to work on a movie. Colin Minahan and Stuart Ortiz, They were trying to get this film done and it took place in the desert and I was, I was just like, Well, I lived in Las Vegas at the time, so I was like, Dude, the desert everywhere.
00;16;36;09 - 00;16;51;15
BC
You should come here and do it. And so I kind of lobbied them to come out and we scouted some locations and I kind of made it impossible for them to say no. And that was just like the first risk take that I took in the in the business. You know, like I was doing, I was comfortably making commercials, but I always wanted to get into films.
00;16;51;15 - 00;17;16;26
BC
So and I had this sort of glimmer of an opportunity. I was just like, Screw it. And I dropped everything. And I just was like, Let's do this. And I wanted that experience. But yeah, they came out and super small budget, you know, is like $700,000. So it was we just didn't have any, anything nice or anything. And you're working in the desert, which is so vast that scouting it and everything was just such a nightmare.
00;17;16;26 - 00;17;35;23
BC
So we ended up getting this RV that we rented and it just sort of became our base camp and we could, you know, we could do makeup in there. We could we could just sort of get out of the cold because, you know, we're in the Vegas desert. It's still that cold. But yeah, just there was one night that we shot and it was a death scene and there's zombie and blood everywhere.
00;17;35;23 - 00;17;59;20
BC
And it was so cold that the actor Merwin, after the scene, he was wearing basically a tank top because it takes place in the summer and it was freezing. And so he gets covered in blood and he just sprints to the RV and just dripping everywhere and just covering like it's like a dog coming in from the snow and he's just shaking and blood's going everywhere and for the rest of the shoot because that was like week one, maybe, maybe end of week one.
00;17;59;22 - 00;18;05;20
BC
We just had this this RV just covered in blood for the entire shoot. Is so gross.
00;18;05;23 - 00;18;12;21
KM
I remember it because I came in the second week and I was everyone was like, Watch out, don't go in there. I stepped in one time. I was like, Holy shit.
00;18;12;23 - 00;18;14;20
BC
So it was like a crime scene. And it's all.
00;18;14;20 - 00;18;17;23
KM
It was like, Did you guys have to pay a couple thousand dollars?
00;18;17;23 - 00;18;29;22
BC
We we took it to a detailing place and they cleaned and it was totally fine. Yeah, it was like 500 bucks, but. Oh, so it all worth it because the guy. Yeah, that was it was so gross. It was just like a crime scene.
00;18;29;22 - 00;18;54;00
KM
And that shoot as well. That was one of those indie shoots that we were talking about before we started rolling cameras today about how you guys are just like, Let's just make this because I remember they didn't have all the money when they started. Yeah, and they started filming that classic like scenario totally, which is challenging. Yeah. And I remember Stu, I was acting in one of the scenes and Stu was on the phone with I don't know who saying that they were going to give another 30 grand.
00;18;54;03 - 00;18;59;27
KM
Okay. And he was I was like, You guys started shooting this movie without your money? Yeah.
00;18;59;29 - 00;19;22;27
BC
Yeah, that was funny because they were financing it and just things balloon, you know, as they do. So you think that you need this much and you need a little bit more so and I didn't have any of those. I didn't have anybody at that time to, like, ask for money. So, yeah, it was kind of just, you know, I was so busy just running the next day, like scouting advance, you know, taking a drone out to the desert and flying around and coming back and be like, What about this spot?
00;19;22;29 - 00;19;41;26
BC
And then, okay, Because I mean, another thing is we went to BLM, the Bureau of Land Management, ahead of time because all the deserts owned by the Bureau of Land Management and we we put out permit requests for everything and we had this very organized thing. And then we went to Wendover to shoot the opening of or the sort of the finale of the film.
00;19;41;28 - 00;19;59;22
BC
And then the next week we were starting kind of principle, but over that weekend it was like Friday evening, all the permits were rejected. And so we were like about Monday we started in earnest and we had no permits. So we're just like, screw it. We're just we just stole every location except for Valley of Fire. They, they let us shoot there.
00;19;59;23 - 00;20;25;16
KM
That was a beautiful spot. I remember being there. I also remember Collin just did not care about his car at first. They they tried to get permission to use the car. Of course, said no, and then they use it anyway. And then because he let me drive the car for that, I was really excited to be driving, but he was willing to let his car get destroyed in a sense, when a zombie was attacking it, he was like, You have to make this look real.
00;20;25;16 - 00;20;44;15
KM
It's getting scratched is a nice Porsche. And then when I was pulling off into this, off this road onto the dirt, he was like, You've got to pull off more. And I'm like, Your car is bouncing along this or This is a Porsche. And he's like, I don't care. And I remember thinking like, Wow, that's what it takes, I guess, to make anybody really care.
00;20;44;21 - 00;20;45;27
KM
And Collin definitely cares.
00;20;46;02 - 00;21;07;24
BC
Totally. Yeah. No, he's super passionate and I think it was funny just because when, you know, he had a car, we, we were trying to rent like a black Ford Mustang or something like that because Ford was easier to deal with. But yeah, it was just like I had, you know, there was no second thought once once you sort of talk about prices of that stuff, you just go, Well, I've got a black car, I've got a nice car, let's just use that.
00;21;07;24 - 00;21;08;14
KM
What do we have?
00;21;08;14 - 00;21;22;20
BC
Yeah, exactly. And that's such a key thing, like when you're starting out to just look at what's around you and build a script from that. Because you can do you know, if you've got a a garage and you've got a nice car or whatever, it's just like, how can I utilize that in my film? Because that stuff's basically free.
00;21;22;22 - 00;21;34;00
BC
And that's where you get production value, that's where you get all that stuff. And so it's just about, you know, it's such a key thing that you can you can tap into when you're first starting out because it's it's tough to get money the first time.
00;21;34;00 - 00;21;46;19
KM
Yeah. I mean, that's one of my next questions here is like if you had advice for someone trying to get their craft together and they've got 500 to $1000000, what are the kinds of projects that you would write or that you would suggest?
00;21;46;26 - 00;21;49;01
BC
But I've never had that much money.
00;21;49;03 - 00;21;52;04
KM
I think that it goes to that. I want to take your movies.
00;21;52;06 - 00;21;56;25
BC
Papa Man had like six something, but the other ones were all sub three.
00;21;56;27 - 00;22;06;07
KM
Okay, so six, you got six A you're, you're giving advice to you who's never done it before. How do you make a 6 million or 600,000.
00;22;06;07 - 00;22;28;02
BC
Yeah. It's, it's, it's challenging. I mean the one thing that I can do that not a lot of people do is that I can edit and do VFX. So a lot of people have to pay for that service and that adds costs, you know, to get a professional editor and to get VFX done. Like it's very expensive. So, you know, I can unfortunately I've put myself in a position where I can do those things.
00;22;28;02 - 00;22;46;05
BC
And so it's like I need less money because my time doesn't cost me anything, just time, you know, And that sucks. And every time it happens, I hate myself for it. But, you know, it's just it's one of those things where it's like if you can diversify your skill set, that alone adds so much money to the budget that it's kind of invisible.
00;22;46;05 - 00;23;10;01
BC
Like you don't need as much money if you can take on more things. And I'm not saying where every you don't want to be in the costume department, you don't want to be, you know, doing all the ad work and you don't want to be a grip or something like that on your on your shoot. But if you have the ability to to you know, because production is such a small part of the process, it's like, you know, if you're doing a 20 day shoot, that's four weeks of what's probably going to take you almost two years to go from beginning to end.
00;23;10;03 - 00;23;30;11
BC
And most of the money is spent there. But a lot of it, you know, when you're doing your post budget, it's it can get super expensive, you know, especially if you have things like VFX and you've got sound mixing, you got music and all of these things. So anything in that level that's after the production of the film that you can take on yourself, I think is hugely vital to just being able to achieve something at a lower budget.
00;23;30;14 - 00;23;44;04
BC
But if someone came up to me and said that I had 600,000, I don't I don't think it really changes the way I would go because that's still not a lot of money, you know, I mean, it it it gets complicated. The more money you have, you know, it's like the.
00;23;44;05 - 00;24;02;05
KM
Things spiral up like you said to total week. Yeah. They all of a sudden just adding even a good cast member will expect a little bit more in the hotel and then they won't need a driver And then you're, you know, all of a sudden you've got somebody on payroll for the driving in that hotel costs and traveling them.
00;24;02;08 - 00;24;27;21
KM
And so that's great when you get a good actor, but then their costs add up. Yeah, same thing with a scene with five people. If you have ten people in that scene, all of a sudden you need ten people to get through hair and makeup day and get on set it. It's like, Well, great, we've got a good scene, which is five cast of still all those people have to get mixed up and then all this stuff And so it gets it gets very expensive very quick.
00;24;27;24 - 00;24;45;16
BC
Yeah no and also when you add like unions into the thing too, like the you know, if there's different budget tier levels that, you know, it's like 250 and under is like an ultra low budget, then you have like modified low budget all these it kind of has these tiers and every tier comes with different fees and different expectations.
00;24;45;19 - 00;25;00;28
BC
And so the higher you get, the more money that gets eaten up by these fees and stuff like that. So that's why I'm a big advocate of just trying to do as much as you can with as little as you can, because it's just I want to put as much money that I have on the screen as possible.
00;25;00;28 - 00;25;15;00
BC
You know, when you when you're starting to get to administer rate of fees and things like that, it's just it you don't get that. You're not getting like the bang for your buck, like you do an indie where it's just like, okay, I'm going to throw all the money at the screen, try make it look as good as possible.
00;25;15;06 - 00;25;29;21
BC
There's just, you know, and it's just an unfortunate reality of the situation. The bigger you are, the bigger the footprint you have to travel. People you have, you know, you have to set up everywhere you go. And it's just, oh, we have to rent out this building next door so we can stage everybody. And it just becomes this like logistical nightmare.
00;25;29;25 - 00;25;45;25
BC
But you need people and then people cost money. So it's just it's kind of exploding. So, I mean, the advice I would give either way, it's just. Right. Well, you know, and try and look around you and what makes you unique and what about your life is unique because I know a lot of people that I well, I'm just kind of boring.
00;25;45;25 - 00;26;02;23
BC
It's like, Sure. But everybody's boring, you know? No one's like there is no Jack Reacher out there that's just going around beating up guys in bars, you know? Think that there might have been a guy that was just in a bar and he saw a fight and he's like, Oh, that's interesting. What if that guy and then you just sort of go down that path of the what ifs.
00;26;02;23 - 00;26;21;13
BC
So it's taking whatever it is, you work a graveyard shift, whatever, that's great. Like you can what would be the worst thing that could happen in that scenario when you're right, you're at work, you know, take that and start expanding it and then follow. Just sort of go on a small snowball and just see where it leads you, because no one knows more about your job than you.
00;26;21;13 - 00;26;48;07
BC
And you can find those idiosyncrasies of your job and kind of create characters out of that. And it's really interesting. So I think finding the story is more important than the set pieces and things like that. So you can take, you know, figure out what your story is. Why are you telling the story about this person or these people and then craft things around that that are that are relevant to their needs and wants, Because then then all of a sudden you've got a film that feels very cohesive and it's like a package thing.
00;26;48;07 - 00;26;54;03
BC
And even though it's it's about your boring life, it's still very interesting because you're taking a cool spin on it.
00;26;54;05 - 00;27;19;05
KM
You know, what's interesting is like without pumping your tires too much right now, you write, you have done commercials and so you know how to produce and make a budget. You have VFX skills, editing skills and directing skills. So in a sense, for somebody to come up and say, okay, I'm I don't have a film, but I want to be Brown and Christensen and I want to make a bunch of horror movies.
00;27;19;07 - 00;27;24;21
KM
They have to learn all those skills in a sense, or they have to know that they need to start chipping away at a few of them for sure.
00;27;24;22 - 00;27;52;15
BC
Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of indie filmmakers like Joe a Joe Boggess and like Josh Easier. They make movies, low budget stuff a lot of the time. And they're they're just a great partnership. And I think it's just the people that you surround yourself with more than just your own personal skills because, you know, if me and you are working together and you can do this really well and I can do this really well, then finding a way to blend those together so that we can kind of touch on even more like it's almost like a Venn diagram and you're finding out, you know, Well, I'm good at these things, he's good
00;27;52;15 - 00;28;16;00
BC
at these, and then we cross over here, it becomes sort of a you're creating, you're creating more money for your budget just by being who you are. So I think that it's not impossible to do, you know, low budget films. You just have to surround yourself with people that are one supportive and two, just eager to kind of join you on that journey because, you know, no one does it alone ever.
00;28;16;08 - 00;28;18;26
BC
You know, it's it's very rare that someone does it alone.
00;28;19;03 - 00;28;35;09
KM
You need help that's in people in our life. We talk to each other and we talk to yeah, we talk to each other about our ideas as they're coming along and people, you get feedback. And sometimes I think when people don't respond to an idea, you're like, Okay, maybe I'll ditch that one, right? Yeah.
00;28;35;16 - 00;28;54;25
BC
And I think that's a big part of it too. Like, you don't have to work with someone to have a circle of people you trust. You know, like if I can send or I can send a scene to someone, just be like, Hey, is this landing for you? Or whatever? And you just have this unbiased thing by someone that understands a position that you're in that's wildly powerful just to be able to to show them that and have that feedback.
00;28;54;25 - 00;29;14;26
BC
Because, you know, as much as, you know, to be a director and a filmmaker like there is a little bit of ego involved, you need to drop that when you're dealing with that because it's brutal when people are honest with you about your work. If it's not working, you know, I mean, nothing's going to be perfect thing. There's going to be scenes, even in your best movie, you're going to watch a scene that you just cringed through and you just hate.
00;29;14;26 - 00;29;26;19
BC
You. Remember what happened on set that day. You remember that you ran out of time. You remember all these things and you really just you forced the edit to get to the place where it was, where it's passable, but it's not what it could have been. And it drives you insane.
00;29;26;20 - 00;29;32;11
KM
So and then you want to tell everybody about all these problems that you had. Yeah, but you just no one gives a fuck.
00;29;32;11 - 00;29;34;11
BC
No one cares. All they care about is that.
00;29;34;14 - 00;29;50;14
KM
Yes, that's the hardest part for me. Even sending off. I'm better at it now, but sending off anything is not writing all the disclaimers into something about like, Yeah, you know, and just saying, What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. So like, do you have a process for refining the ideas that you're developing?
00;29;50;16 - 00;30;06;06
BC
I mean, a lot of it happens just naturally. Like when you write I'm someone that's, that's really bad at getting stuck. On page 25. I'll write an opening. I'll have a great idea for that. I'll take it all the way to the first act break, and then I get stuck there and I'm like, Oh crap, I need to, like, start a whole new thing.
00;30;06;06 - 00;30;21;03
BC
I need to branch out into all these things. And it's kind of like you get scared of moving forward because you've got this, like really sharp opening. And so then all of a sudden you're like, I'm just going to go back and revise it, you know, and I'm just going to kind of rewrite what I wrote and see if it unlocks anything.
00;30;21;05 - 00;30;37;22
BC
And then all of a sudden you're like, I kind of like this. This is neat. And you really focus on those first 25 and you don't ever just keep expanding and seeing what it can be. So that that's happened a lot. And it's a total just like our, you know, writer's block that just hits and it doesn't happen for everybody.
00;30;37;22 - 00;30;51;27
BC
Like I write with my brother a lot now and he's just like, I'm going to get the pages down. I don't care. I'm just going to power through. It doesn't matter if it's good or not. And that's so powerful just to get it down. Because if you can analyze something and just sort of see from like a glance, you just go, Oh, well, that's not working.
00;30;52;01 - 00;31;06;08
BC
But what would work there? And you just have that collaborative process. So like I've only written one script by myself and that was Super Host and that was even still like, I would send it to Kurt or I'd send a text and I would talk to them and they would have ideas, and you go, Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
00;31;06;08 - 00;31;18;07
BC
And you kind of expand that. So I think that just goes back to just having people around, you know, not necessarily to work with, but just to have that feedback that you, you, you know, you can trust. Yeah.
00;31;18;07 - 00;31;34;12
KM
And then trust their taste totally. There's some people I trust, but I don't actually enjoy their taste too much. But I do trust them to always be honest and I wouldn't be insulted if they said something. However, you also have to enjoy the person's niche of what they like, right. Which seems to be something that you felt like you found.
00;31;34;12 - 00;31;46;24
KM
You and Kurt are both similar in a sense of the movies that you're making and Colin and those guys like that was like a very supportive kind of unit of people that all really like the thrillers and the horrors, right?
00;31;46;24 - 00;32;03;20
BC
Yeah, and just good instincts, like. Yeah, and it's interesting too. It's not like if someone's like, Hey, you really have to pay attention to the note. Like, the note behind the note is something that people say a lot. And I think it's it's, you know, someone's like, Oh, well, that that character, they seem to mean or something like that.
00;32;03;20 - 00;32;19;22
BC
And it's kind of a vague thing. Generally, they don't know how to fix it because they're not as in tune with the script. But if they're saying something kind of like reflect on why they're saying it, it doesn't have to be. If they're like, Oh, that scene where they do that thing that didn't make sense, don't just change that scene.
00;32;19;22 - 00;32;36;00
BC
Kind of analyze the character as a whole and see why that scene's not working. So it's not it's not just that scene that's wrong. It could be the lead up, the buildup, any of the setup for that character or whatever happening in that scene that you just need to tweet to get it naturally. Yeah, get there. You know, so it's it's tough.
00;32;36;01 - 00;32;55;10
KM
Yeah. I think it's sometimes like you're trying to figure out the plot point of a scene, but then you realize what's happening is the character stuff, right? And like, how is this scene how is this scene building onto what's happening later, I suppose is one aspect is it gets it's yeah, it is tough because they're all it's all sweater right Totally.
00;32;55;10 - 00;32;56;22
KM
One thing connects to another.
00;32;56;22 - 00;33;15;10
BC
Yeah you get the ripple effect when you start changing things. And I'm like, Oh no, that's change this change now that's, that's, that's, that's a terrible thing to happen. But yeah, it's, it's basically, it's sometimes you're forcing a character to do something and if your script is working, it should feel like it was easy when you look back at it.
00;33;15;10 - 00;33;47;07
BC
Like obviously they did this and this and this, but there's so much work to make sure that that's natural. So when it's not natural, it kind of sticks out and you're like, Oh, like that feels off. And I don't know why, but it doesn't. And so it's, you know, it's massaging those things out. But yeah, it's, it's weird because when you get to a point where it's just like that aha moment, that's, that's like so, so awesome for everybody, you know, if someone else and that's why feedback is so important because even if they say something, it might be wrong, but it might inspire something in you to be like, Oh, I see what they're
00;33;47;07 - 00;34;03;09
BC
trying to say. If I do this and that, you know, and you can kind of figure it out that way. So it's again, it's just having the collaborators and and it's hard to say that because, you know, I fortunately have a good group of people around me. If you're just starting out like you probably don't have that. So it's tough.
00;34;03;09 - 00;34;23;22
BC
And I mean, there are a million resources online. You've got like subreddits for everything. So it's you can sort of find those people and find that feedback and but that's the risk taking part of it, right? Like you have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions because film is so it, film is the most unique art form in the world because it isn't made in a vacuum, you know, like the writer.
00;34;23;22 - 00;34;36;06
BC
If you're hiring a writer to do whatever, they're in a vacuum. It's just like they're writing away in a room. And then all of a sudden you have the director come in and all of a sudden the limitations start happening. We don't have enough money. We can't get the cast for this. Oh, what if this character was this?
00;34;36;06 - 00;34;49;21
BC
And so and you have all these things happening and all of a sudden you're basically rewriting the script, but your fingers have been cut off and so you're just smashing away at the keyboard. Then you get to the edit, you have to rewrite it again. And all the things that didn't work in production because of, oh, it started raining that day.
00;34;49;21 - 00;35;06;14
BC
We had to go inside. The scene was moved. So then the editors like Arms are chopped off and he's slamming his face into the keyboard, trying to rewrite the script again. And that's basically what film is. And like, you don't have a painter that paints a picture of someone and then someone comes in and they have no concept and they start, they redraw it.
00;35;06;17 - 00;35;14;06
BC
You know, you have a book that's really op eds on a book, sure. But you don't have someone writing a book. And then it just gets completely rewritten like.
00;35;14;09 - 00;35;31;28
KM
Ten different scenarios. Yeah, it's you know, it's funny you say that because I said once that I said it a couple of times at the beginning of shoots. Hey, everybody, thanks for coming out. This is so special that we're here. We all agree to make this script as best we can. Like, how rare is that in life that all these people come together to make this one creative piece?
00;35;32;00 - 00;35;47;19
KM
It doesn't happen very often. But then what you're saying is I'm missing the part where it's going to get totally fucked up. Yeah, there's so many ways. Six ways from Sunday at every stage. Yeah, all the way to post-production, you know, like, and you'll be, like, jamming to scenes together that didn't even make sense.
00;35;47;21 - 00;35;50;13
BC
It's a miracle that movies. It's crazy.
00;35;50;13 - 00;36;09;27
KM
Yeah, it is crazy. That's kind of part of the part that I love about it. And people. There's a great movie called Broadcast News where Roger Ebert is talking about how in life some people are driven to those high pressure scenarios because that's actually something they find exciting and we complain about it. Everyone in film talks about the war stories.
00;36;09;27 - 00;36;38;03
KM
Yeah, but there's something about us and like same with people who are journalists, like that immediacy and I really love it. Like on set, especially sometimes shoot goes wrong and it's real tough. But you, you go, okay, let's just make it a movie. Let's fix it right? But I don't know if everybody is cut out for that pressure, the stress or like for a period of time when I was just started working at some of those studios, 24 hours a day, all the time you're expected to be on no matter what.
00;36;38;07 - 00;36;55;01
KM
Yeah. And because you're servicing actors and people with massive egos and they're expecting that if they have a problem, they've just flown to Vancouver. Just matter. That is Saturday morning. Totally, you know. Yeah. So how do you think about that? About like everybody, the people who get into film and it, you know, they get cut.
00;36;55;01 - 00;37;09;23
BC
Out. I think I well, I think it's interesting because film, again it's so diverse like the amount of jobs are there. And like when I was in film school, I didn't know what I wanted. I wanted to be a director. And then I was like, Oh, well, I kind of like shooting, so maybe I'll be a director of photography, but then I'm a, you know, I'm a narcissist.
00;37;09;23 - 00;37;27;09
BC
So I was like, No, I'll go back to directing. And that became my thing. But there's so many positions that are still creative, like the props department. I love the props department is amazing. Like what they can build and find. Like I go on Facebook marketplace and find an old pay phone. I'm like, I wish I was props so I could own that and just have a reason to own that thing because it's so cool.
00;37;27;11 - 00;37;33;25
BC
Because, I mean, it's those, it's bringing all the elements together and like, you know, wardrobe and there's so much creativity going on.
00;37;33;26 - 00;37;50;29
KM
Hair and makeup. I was watching the movie. I don't want to say it because it's a good movie and the hair is so bad. I mean, they made this guys look older and his hair is so bad I couldn't see. And there's one scene where he steps out in the bright sunlight and I was just laughing. I'm like, they didn't have like a big enough shade because you can it looks so terrible.
00;37;50;29 - 00;38;09;07
KM
And then you look at Bradley Pitt in this. Mr. movie, he looks amazing and the makeup is unreal and it's clearly next level, right? That's the thing to me where a lot of people don't have until you've seen it go wrong. Right. Costumes and and hair make production.
00;38;09;07 - 00;38;09;25
BC
Department.
00;38;09;25 - 00;38;29;15
KM
Production department, production design. It's just such a big one, too. That is very under appreciated, troubling people at large. Same with editing, too. Like, I think that's an underappreciated skill set. Like they tried to cut it out of the Academy Awards last year. Right, Right, right. It came back too many people. Yeah. Those little elements are, like you say, props.
00;38;29;17 - 00;38;30;19
KM
That's what makes your movie.
00;38;30;20 - 00;38;47;05
BC
Totally. And so I think people getting into the industry, they they can see they don't know that, you know, they don't know until they experience and they go on set like there was this kid recently. I had a friend who reached out. He's like, Hey, my friend's son is a senior in high school. He wants to get into filmmaking, but he doesn't know how can you have a call with him?
00;38;47;05 - 00;39;03;20
BC
So I was like, okay, cool. So we had a call and I was just like, Well, what do you want to do? Like, what is your interest? Is like, I don't know. I just want to make movies. And I was like, Okay, cool. So fortunately Kurt was on a film producing in town and I was just like, Hey, can this guy come out for the weekend and just be on set and like, he can do whatever and he can just sort of see the positions.
00;39;03;22 - 00;39;18;02
BC
And so he went out and he went for a couple of days and was just sort of I think he was in the department, but he was able to see everything and just sort of see how even though there's like a scene going on, there's so many departments outside of that that are working in unison, it's like this well-oiled machine.
00;39;18;04 - 00;39;31;19
BC
And it's exciting to be part of that because, one, the pressure's a little lower than like a film. You know, the director has to take on the brunt of all that pressure. There's still a ton of pressure to make sure your props and all these things, you know, your hair and your wardrobe and they're all great. But it's a different kind of pressure.
00;39;31;19 - 00;39;51;17
BC
You know, it's and it's it's there's these great positions that people make great livings on. And it's just it's a great place to work. You know, the energy on set, there's nothing like it when things are going. It's just this chaotic energy that is so fun to be a part of. And, you know, so if you're starting out and you there's so many positions that you can find interest in.
00;39;51;17 - 00;40;14;00
BC
And like if I started over, I'd probably go into props because I love props. Were production design or something, you know, and just being, being able to focus my energy on this one thing because, I mean, directing is mostly babysitting. You know, most of your work happens in prep, you've got the script, you've got your shot list, you've got all these things you're building, but it's like you're building relationships with actors so you can communicate effectively with them to get them to do what you want.
00;40;14;02 - 00;40;29;14
BC
And they're always resistant to do what you want because they want to do what they want. And so you're kind of managing everything. And it's basically it's babies, it's camp, it's summer camp. You're a counselor, everyone's the kids and you're just like, you're just making sure everyone's happy and doing the right things and all that stuff.
00;40;29;16 - 00;40;42;25
KM
It's a lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control, it's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.
00;40;42;27 - 00;40;58;06
BC
And just managing chaos. It's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like, you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, and even if you don't, you're acting like you do.
00;40;58;07 - 00;41;18;25
BC
You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing. Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. Allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go, like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped.
00;41;18;25 - 00;41;25;23
KM
And so they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is just like, well he doesn't know what he wants, so we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.
00;41;25;26 - 00;41;44;23
BC
And you hear that a lot. Like, oh, the director didn't know what they wanted the director photography. All of a sudden he's picking all the shots and the identity of the film is and they're like, it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean, so ideally, again, like I've got a great cinematographer with Clayton Moore that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things we've worked together for since 2009.
00;41;44;26 - 00;42;03;07
BC
And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it's just it's very it's amazing, you know? So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is.
00;42;03;07 - 00;42;16;12
BC
And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively you can figure out what you can and can't do. Like I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time. We got to move on.
00;42;16;14 - 00;42;39;10
BC
I know. I'm good condensing down and just being like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other thing that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that. They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that.
00;42;39;10 - 00;42;49;15
BC
Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.
00;42;49;17 - 00;43;17;21
KM
It's funny because you know you're going to go back to stealing it, the non union, where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just them and a sound mixer back to the fight, the final scene with him in the field when he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days.
00;43;31;23 - 00;43;47;17
BC
And they're always resistant to do what you want because they want to do what they want. And so you're kind of managing everything. And it's basically it's babies, it's camp, it's summer camp. You're a counselor, everyone's the kids and you're just like, you're just making sure everyone's happy and doing the right things and all that stuff. It's it's a.
00;43;47;17 - 00;44;00;18
KM
Lot of PR involved. It's a lot, like you say, making people happy and trying to be like, I'm in control. It's okay. And like, even if it goes south, it's still okay. I'm here for you. Yeah, I feel like that is a big part of Yeah, yeah.
00;44;00;20 - 00;44;18;08
BC
And just managing chaos. That's all it is. It's just like, okay, this went wrong because of course it did. How am I going to react in front of everybody to let them know that I'm still confident, you know, because, like you have to just have unbridled confidence. I mean, even if you don't, you're acting like you do. You're just pretending like I know what I'm doing.
00;44;18;08 - 00;44;36;21
BC
Listen to me, because I know what I'm doing. And then people start questioning you and you just you just have to maintain that. Like, No, that's not right. Or Yeah, no, that's a great idea. And allowing people to kind of come in and and do that. But the moment that you go like, I don't know, it's like, it's like piranhas in a, you know, with a body that just dropped in.
00;44;36;22 - 00;44;43;13
KM
So they, they'll start doing whatever they want, whatever department it is, just like, well he doesn't know what he wants. So we'll give him what he wants and then it's it.
00;44;43;16 - 00;44;59;29
BC
And you hear that a lot. Like, Oh, the director didn't know what they wanted, said the director of photography, of sudden picking, of the shots and the identity of the film is and there like it was. And it's it's really tough. I mean so ideally again, like I've got a great cinematographer, Clayton Moore, that we did commercials, we did short films, we've done a million things.
00;44;59;29 - 00;45;15;24
BC
We've worked together for since 2009. And it's like, now there's just a shorthand that I can be like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And he we don't even have to talk. A lot of the time. It's just like we see it. Let's fix it. I'll do this. I'm sorry, I'll do this. And it just it's very it's amazing, you know?
00;45;15;24 - 00;45;33;08
BC
So you have your lists and you have this idealist view of what it is. And then when you get to set and you realize like, oh, the lighting took an hour longer than I thought, you just intuitively can figure out what you can and can't do. Like, I've gotten good at Self-managing Time where I don't have to have an ad even like, Hey, we're out of time, We're out of time.
00;45;33;08 - 00;45;48;28
BC
We got to move on. I know I'm good at condensing down and just be like, okay, if we just get these few things, we can pop off and spend the rest of our time on this other scene that needs it. And that's a big thing too, is like and this is something that I've learned over time as inserts and things like that.
00;45;49;01 - 00;46;07;03
BC
They can take a long time because they need to be perfect, but that time is way better off not spent with your key crew and stuff like that. Like you, if you have a computer shot and you're like trying to get text writing on a computer, do it later, you know, get just get it on your own. Make a document on your computer and film it yourself with whatever you know, It doesn't matter.
00;46;07;10 - 00;46;26;16
KM
It's funny because, you know, you're getting back to stealing at the non union where like once you get into unions, they would not want you to do that. But then you hear all these stories about people that do like in The Bourne Identity, the director, Doug Liman, went off with Clive Owen and Matt Damon with just him and a sound mixer.
00;46;26;16 - 00;46;42;26
KM
Back to the fight in the final scene with him in the field. When he gets shot at like he would, they were editing it and the studio was so fed up with him by that point that they're like, You're not doing any more days. And he went, He just told them, Hey, let's go do this right. And they're like, They would all be not even eligible for insurance if something had happen, but they did it right.
00;46;42;26 - 00;46;48;12
KM
That seems I love that part of our business. I'm not saying that's a good thing to do. I'm just saying sometimes.
00;46;48;15 - 00;47;07;23
BC
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's and it's funny how much you can get away with, like if you're seeing the faces, focus on that because the emotion, the scenes, you know, and it's figuring out which scenes need the work. Like if it's just like a scene where you're just doing a little exposition, try and just hustle through that because the scenes where you need to, you know, do a gag or something like that, they always take longer than you expect.
00;47;07;26 - 00;47;28;04
BC
So if you can just focus on getting the main things and just keeping a tally, like, okay, we need an answer of the phone being dialed, like we'll shoot that later another day even if it's after production. Like I'll just do it in my garage, whatever. I do that all the time and it saves so much time because, you know, you'll see like David Fincher, he'll do a shot where Jake Gyllenhaal throws a book on a chair on a on the car seat beside him.
00;47;28;12 - 00;47;47;16
BC
These are like 75 takes and it's just but he's got 100 plus days for his films. On an indie world. You just don't have that. Like, you just need to make sure that every minute of that day is spent moving forward. You know, if you get lost, it's all of a sudden like on Z, for example, there is a scene and it's a dumb nothing scene.
00;47;47;16 - 00;48;05;05
BC
It's just a quick conversation between a mother and a father. And we're in this tiny office room and I go in on blocking with everybody. And then all of a sudden one of the actors goes like, Well, what if I did this? And then the other actors like, Well, no, what if we did this? And all of a sudden you're in this situation where everybody's watching you, You're like in a like a cage.
00;48;05;08 - 00;48;22;04
BC
Everybody's like looking at their watches. And we spent like 45 minutes talking about why she should step here rather than here. And it was nothing. It means nothing in the film. You know, it's such a small scene, but we spent so much time trying to figure it out. And until at the end, I just was like, everybody shut up.
00;48;22;04 - 00;48;27;22
BC
Let's just do it like we planned at the beginning and just we don't have time for this, you know? And it's so it's so it's so.
00;48;27;22 - 00;48;43;04
KM
Adam Big show. Yeah. So the actors are starting to do it, and then they do it more and more. And then all of a sudden you have these long blocking sessions and I, I don't. Yeah, I saw this one director completely lose control. He really did lose control. Yeah. And there is right to the end. Like the final scene.
00;48;43;04 - 00;48;59;25
KM
I remember he was fighting with the actor and the actors like, I'm not going to feel this way about this event. And he's like, What? And he's like, Please, just do it the way I'm asking for it. And he's like, No, I would be upset or something. I can remember exactly the details and I couldn't believe it. I was like, How is this happening to the But I guess that happens a lot.
00;48;59;28 - 00;49;05;03
KM
Big, big actors, especially. I mean, that's where it's so challenging because sometimes their idea is right.
00;49;05;03 - 00;49;11;05
BC
Right. But it's also time again, like you don't you have to make a decision now because, you know.
00;49;11;08 - 00;49;13;21
KM
You don't feel that pressure and they're not going to be editing, right?
00;49;13;23 - 00;49;33;05
BC
Yeah, I just I mean, I just did another film recently and I had some text messages the day before we were shooting a scene. And they're like, this doesn't make sense when going with this. And they're like micro analyzing the script. And I was just kind of like, like I didn't have a good answer for it. I just knew that the moment would likely work because I the way I saw it.
00;49;33;08 - 00;49;47;06
BC
And so I talked to another actor and I was just like, I like I don't like I don't want to offend them and be like, they're wrong or anything, but like, I just need to get this thing because it's very technical and specific, but I don't have the right way to say it. And he was just like, Yeah, just basically just say that.
00;49;47;06 - 00;50;02;19
BC
Like, just say it. That's how you want to see it. And so, like, I use that in the conversation. I said, I totally understand what you're saying but I know it's going to work because this specific moment in this genre and they're going to play together really well, you just you just have to trust me like we've worked together before.
00;50;02;24 - 00;50;20;10
BC
It's just going to, you know, if it doesn't work, it's on me. It's not on you. You know, most interesting thing to me is when you write something, you have a voice in your head. These characters say this line this way. Nine times out of ten, the actor comes out to a table read or whatever on set, and they say, In a way, you're like, Whoa, that's a was a shock to my system.
00;50;20;10 - 00;50;38;29
BC
That's not how I thought it would be said. And you can get lost and be like, Well, I need to recreate what I saw without realizing, like what they're doing is still good and valid, you know? And that's a big thing too. Like temp love, where you use like temp music in a movie and then all of a sudden you replace it with score or soundtrack that you get and you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00;50;38;29 - 00;50;56;00
BC
This is off. Because I've seen this so many times with this other thing. And it becomes that sort of issue of just like you have to step back and be objective about it because, you know, the audience will never know what you wrote. They'll never know what you were, what happened on set. All they know is what's in front of them.
00;50;56;00 - 00;51;05;10
BC
So if you can just step back and see it from that lens, it can change your perception on how things work, you know, and it's it's something that everybody struggles with. I still do all the time.
00;51;05;13 - 00;51;15;29
KM
You have a found footage film that you're editing right now. Are you inspired? Were you inspired by Blair Witch and Cloverfield like why did you decide to do a found footage from I Love Found Footage Film.
00;51;16;02 - 00;51;32;06
BC
I mean, in this particular case, it was a it was a gimmick that I'd never seen before. And I really wanted to do it because it's so novel. And so I think there's I think found footage is great when you can make it work properly, like, you know. BLAIR Which is so great because they're documenting a thing so natural that they would be filming.
00;51;32;13 - 00;51;51;06
BC
You know, you have something like Rec where it's like, you know, a news reporter. They're filming it because that's his job he's filming. It makes sense. So if you can get to that point where the reason people are filming makes sense, it creates makes it so much more believable. You know, like there was a movie called Dash Cam where it's a girl live streaming pretty much for the entire movie.
00;51;51;08 - 00;52;11;01
BC
And so it makes sense that she's constantly recording. The problem is when you get to those moments of, you know, the scary things like that, like why are they still doing it? I think the Blair Witch, they did a great job of it when they're like seeing things through the lens, gave you this disconnect and it made it easier for them to cope with what they were going through.
00;52;11;04 - 00;52;27;28
BC
And I think that was really smart. So I think I mean, found footage still has a ton of life left. It just has to be right. You know, like everything doesn't have to be the you know, there's so many you know, there's a ring doorbell on everybody's door, you know, what is that door? See, You know, you could write a story like a short film about that.
00;52;27;29 - 00;52;50;22
BC
Yeah. And it's film footage. But it's not what you would think of found footage. So there's there's all these different kind of avenues of that medium that haven't been found. But I mean, Blair Witch, you know, it wasn't the first, but it definitely it did a new thing with, with how they did it in the documentary feel like all that was really novel but and going really hard into horror and creating this mythos.
00;52;50;22 - 00;53;10;06
BC
But the biggest thing that they did was creating the viral marketing around it, which no one had ever seen. So people are watching these, you know, watching these news reports about these kids that went missing and their footage was found and there was this like this moment of, well, wait, was this real? Like when I saw the film, I saw an advanced screening in Langley, B.C., with my cousin.
00;53;10;06 - 00;53;28;22
BC
He got these midnight screening tickets. And when when we got them, this was 1999. And like, the Internet was still young. This is pretty social media. So all you got was the content they were giving you. You know, it's like, Oh, there's this website that has all this evidence of these kids. And so you're feeding, you're creating this feedback loop of everybody being like, Is this real?
00;53;28;22 - 00;53;57;13
BC
So I went to that movie and I'm in the eighth grade and I'm like, I'm like watching these people getting hunted down and killed. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm watching this. Like, this shouldn't be legal, you know? And that was just insanely effective marketing. And so I think that's one thing that's been lost with film right now is just having the creator of the project or the director or whatever, being more involved in the marketing because like what happens is the movie gets taken from you and they do a trailer and it's telling.
00;53;57;13 - 00;54;11;24
BC
It's spoiling things that you're like, No, that's part of the experience is not knowing that, but it's out there for everybody. And ultimately it doesn't really matter because you're just trying to get eyeballs and I understand that like you need to sell the movie to be like, Hey, there's 100 million movies out there right now, but you need to watch this one.
00;54;11;29 - 00;54;24;24
BC
So we're going to tell you everything. And that's why everyone's like, Don't watch the trailers. It spoils everything. They're doing that because they need to show you the best bits so that you'll be interested enough to watch because there's no shortage of content. You've got Netflix, you've got Hulu, you've got Craig.
00;54;24;24 - 00;54;49;21
KM
You've got amazing people making videos on their phones that are awesome. Crazy. I just hilarious stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Brandon, I want to end on a high note. That was so fun. I knew this was going to be fun to talk to you. And I would love to do probably another ten conversations because I had a lot of respect for you and I just knew that we'd be able to like, vibe out for a minute about all the crazy aspects of film.
00;54;49;24 - 00;55;07;07
KM
So just to sign off, this is brought to you by Stryker and our mission with this interview series is to shine a spotlight on talented filmmakers and Canadian filmmakers, and our hope is to provide tools to help people make better films and to save time on set. So thank you.
BC
No problem.